Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[BiggaBullfrog]

Boooo to the idea of turning everything into a faction.

But, also, Abe no Seimei and Kincho are fine cards. My biggest concern is how much is going on with Honest Abe's card -- each of those powers isn't terrible alone, but it makes for a busy card that I think may be better off if it focused on just two of them. But I'm willing to take it to testing to see how it goes there, since it's close on a strictly design level.

to Abe
to Kincho

I, also, don't love the idea of making changes after a card is submitted, especially after it's passed UFR and is in the testing process. Like the others, I'm fine with this change as it's really not changing much (though I personally like it less because why does everything have to be a faction), but it may be prudent to also announce the suggested change in its UFR thread and seek thoughts from the C3V members who voted on it there to get their thoughts on it as well.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Aye, and there is additional concerns since it has already passed UF Review. Though I rather doubt anyone would change their opinion based on this change.

Yeah, UF Review is my primary concern with the change. It's relatively minor (given that there are no currently accepted gameplay changes) and while I doubt that it would've flipped any votes, it's still a change that wasn't on the card originally. To my knowledge, most changes to SoV units after submission have typically been initiated by C3V rather than by SoV to account for additional units down the line.

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

Boooo to the idea of turning everything into a faction.

Touching on this, I do agree with your sentiment that not everything needs to be a faction (and I conjecture also that making factions just to be factions is bad, which I would wholeheartedly agree with).

I think that it's important to note that the Yokai units were being designed to take advantage of unique gameplay and on their own merit as a new army type, rather than merely for the sake of creating another faction or checking off a box. I suppose that it would be possible to cut out Masha altogether and use a new species, but the units at their heart are designed to thematically portray Yokai, and letting Masha join in on the shapeshifting fun makes more sense than trying to design around him (and it gives them a new tool to mess around with, even if they still aren't competitive like traditional factions).

It would be possible to limit the Yokai to standalone designs like the Lawmen or Xao Lin-less monks (and it still is to a certain extent), but Seimei was actually the starting point for the non-Masha Yokai designs, rather than a later addition to turn disparate units into a faction. It's a top-down approach that resulted in some very different designs, evident immediately when just looking at the way that Kincho was designed in relation to Seimei.

I, also, don't love the idea of making changes after a card is submitted, especially after it's passed UFR and is in the testing process. Like the others, I'm fine with this change as it's really not changing much (though I personally like it less because why does everything have to be a faction), but it may be prudent to also announce the suggested change in its UFR thread and seek thoughts from the C3V members who voted on it there to get their thoughts on it as well.

I have no qualms with bringing up this discussion (or linking to here) in the UFR thread if it'll garner more attention from C3V. I absolutely want to get their input before any changes are made.

[Scytale]

Abe no Seimei and Kincho have both received 4 Yea votes to review (capsocrates, Scytale, superfrog, and BiggaBullfrog) and move forward in the process.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Yeah, UF Review is my primary concern with the change. It's relatively minor (given that there are no currently accepted gameplay changes) and while I doubt that it would've flipped any votes, it's still a change that wasn't on the card originally. To my knowledge, most changes to SoV units after submission have typically been initiated by C3V rather than by SoV to account for additional units down the line.

Touching on this, I do agree with your sentiment that not everything needs to be a faction (and I conjecture also that making factions just to be factions is bad, which I would wholeheartedly agree with).

I think that it's important to note that the Yokai units were being designed to take advantage of unique gameplay and on their own merit as a new army type, rather than merely for the sake of creating another faction or checking off a box. I suppose that it would be possible to cut out Masha altogether and use a new species, but the units at their heart are designed to thematically portray Yokai, and letting Masha join in on the shapeshifting fun makes more sense than trying to design around him (and it gives them a new tool to mess around with, even if they still aren't competitive like traditional factions).

It would be possible to limit the Yokai to standalone designs like the Lawmen or Xao Lin-less monks (and it still is to a certain extent), but Seimei was actually the starting point for the non-Masha Yokai designs, rather than a later addition to turn disparate units into a faction. It's a top-down approach that resulted in some very different designs, evident immediately when just looking at the way that Kincho was designed in relation to Seimei.

I have no qualms with bringing up this discussion (or linking to here) in the UFR thread if it'll garner more attention from C3V. I absolutely want to get their input before any changes are made.

I've been watching closely. It seems to me obvious that this thread is not the place to change the text of an existing card. I can't imagine that that's what anyone was proposing, but (to the extent that it is) I would rather we did not go that route.

And as for "making everything a faction," it seems to me that there's pretty much always some pressure from somewhere to expand (or round out, or w/e) a faction. Cowboys, whatever. It's difficult to resist that kind of pressure, because we all draw those lines different ways.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I've been watching closely. It seems to me obvious that this thread is not the place to change the text of an existing card. I can't imagine that that's what anyone was proposing, but (to the extent that it is) I would rather we did not go that route.

I proposed it, actually. I would rather something like this was discussed publicly.

It's also not an existing card. It's a card currently under review, with one review so far.

[Dad_Scaper]

I am not saying that there should not be a public discussion. Of course there should, for the SoV. And I was confused and thought that this related to an existing card, as opposed to one currently under review.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I am not saying that there should not be a public discussion. Of course there should, for the SoV. And I was confused and thought that this related to an existing card, as opposed to one currently under review.

I would have agreed if this was an existing card. I'm glad it was just a misunderstanding.

To be clear, we could just go through a cancellation and resubmission, but that seems like process for process's sake in this case. Unless someone objects to the slight thematic shift, I'd like to just slip this one through.

[Dad_Scaper]

Quite right. And I am pleased to have posted the 7,000th contribution to this thread in a way that was true to my pattern of posting, which is a constant state of confusion.

[Astroking112]

Here is the updated card for Masha Shingai featuring the new Yokai synergy. The only change is that Fiery Retribution can now work for both Samurai and Yokai, which only impacts future designs:



I'll also edit it into the original submission for future reference.

I'd also like to withdraw Abe no Seimei and Kincho for the time being. A few days ago, I found that one of the other Yokai sculpts unexpectedly has enough availability for a submission. I intend to run just a few more tests to ensure that this other design is up to par and then resubmit Seimei and Kincho along with the newcomer very soon.

It's unfortunate that the availability for this other design wasn't found two weeks ago, but I think that being able to also test this unit in relation to Seimei and Kincho will really help emphasize what makes the Yokai unique.

[Astroking112]

With my additional testing done, I would like to nominate Ibaraki-doji along with Abe no Seimei and Kincho for SoV Review. Since I already delved into Seimei and Kincho in-depth in their recent nomination, I will focus this post primarily on the newcomer, Ibaraki-doji. The cards are provided again for easy reference.

ABE NO SEIMEI
(Primary)


The miniature used for Abe no Seimei is Nymph, Alseid #008 from the recently released Mythic Odysseys of Theros D&D set.

BIO:

Spoiler Alert!

“You are not an easy man to find, sorcerer,” Einar said as the light from his summoning circle slowly faded away. Standing in the center was a lone man draped in crackling, yellow flame.

“It was not yet time for me to appear,” the sorcerer replied in a low voice.

Einar notched an eyebrow as he asked, “You knew that you would come to Valhalla?”

The sorcerer smiled as he spread his palms outward and bowed. “Of course, Lord Einar,” he said, “You see, I am a simple sorcerer. I can see everything that has been or will be, and I know that things must happen for a reason. My time on Feylund was at its end, but I knew that my destiny had more in store for me.”

Einar smiled. “My visions led me well to find you, then. Will you fight for me, sorcerer?”

The sorcerer slowly shook his head. “I am much better suited as an advisor, my liege. If you would allow, then I can guide you well to ensure that you win this war, but only on one condition.”

A look of dangerous interest crossed Einar’s face as his brow furrowed. “You would ask a condition of me?”

Unfazed, the sorcerer slowly nodded. “Yes, my liege. I know that many of your troops wish to return to their home worlds once this war is over—”

Einar inwardly sighed in disappointment. For a second, he had thought that this would be an interesting request. “I will grant you your condition, sorcerer. If we win this war, then I will return you to Feylund.”

“No,” the sorcerer firmly stated, “When we win this war, Lord Einar, I do not want you to send me back to Feylund. There is another world that I am destined for.”

At this request, the room fell silent save for the crackling fire on the man’s shoulder. Then, something miraculous happened: Einar started to laugh. His booming laughter echoed throughout the summoning chamber—so many of his nobles and the warriors that he summoned were afraid of him—it was refreshing to see someone with such a strong spine!

“Very well, sorcerer! When we win Valhalla, I will send you to a planet of your choice. Until then, I am very interested in what the future holds in store,” Einar leaned forward, gesturing the sorcerer forward, “Now, by what name should I address you, my royal advisor?”

The sorcerer paused for a second, tilting his eyes to the skies. Finally, he returned Einar’s gaze and smiled. “Abe no Seimei,” he replied, “That is the name that they will come to know me by.”

KINCHO
(Secondary)


The miniature used for Kincho is Tanuki #019 from Pathfinder's Jungle of Despair release.

IBARAKI-DOJI
(Secondary)


The miniature used for Ibaraki-doji is Oni Night Haunter #35 from D&D's Lords of Madness set.

BIO:

Spoiler Alert!

Ibaraki-doji has seven days to live:
Flashing pain! Crushed skull!

Ibaraki-doji has one wound to bear:
Burning greed! Bleeding side!

Ibaraki-doji has seven lives to kill:
Screams of fear! Fleeing men!

Ibaraki-doji has just one lord to serve:
Shuten-doji! King of Oni!

Ibaraki-doji has seven days to kill.
The Demon of Rashomon is here!

The primary change from two weeks ago is obviously the addition of Ibaraki-doji to the faction. Seimei and Kincho still work surprisingly well as a pairing on their own (even though you'd be better off saving those 190 points for a dragon 9 out of 10 times), but the addition of the terrifying Oni serves to really highlight what makes the Yokai unique and gives a clearer immediate form to the faction, even if it isn't one set army.

BALANCE

Spoiler Alert!

Ibaraki-doji is inspired by many of the 120 point heavy-hitters, sporting a frightening power backed up by good durability. 7 life and 3 defense are good, but if you aren't taking Yokai (and because of how Seimei's Night of the Yokai works, specifically taking turns with Yokai), then he can really start to become a burden at some points. Being forced to have a revealed Order Marker on his card to prevent him from wounding himself is highly restrictive, especially since he can only move 4 spaces if there are no opponents within range of the first Demon of Rashomon attack.

This unique sense of punishing the player for taking him unless they devote more turns to him feels very in line with the feel of Yokai units established by Masha Shingai, and it also acts a nice balance to his surprising mobility once the battle begins and his high base attack. He's certainly a powerhouse for 120 points, but considering his limitations, it feels very reasonable. He won't be usurping Kaemon Awa, Asterios, or other classic 120 pointers any time soon.

It's Seimei who starts to really shine by removing some of these restrictions. In a Yokai build, Ibaraki-doji suddenly becomes much more free to wreak havoc when and where he pleases. Of course, this requires that you drop 130 points on Seimei plus however many points on other Yokai worth putting Order Markers on. It's a powerful boost over his normal self, but it's one that's validated by essentially locking you into a Yokai build to remove those restrictions.

THEME

Spoiler Alert!

Ibaraki-doji is clearly based on the actual Ibaraki-doji, one of the most famous oni. He was known for being Shuten-doji's most prominent servant and for being a terrible menace to the town of Rashomon (hence his moniker as the Demon of Rashomon). Together, they led a marauding band of oni around until heroes were eventually sent in to slay Shuten-doji. Ibaraki-doji fled and was the only oni to survive.

Eventually, one of the heroes left for Rashomon to investigate the rumors of an oni that had survived. On their journey, they were suddenly abducted by Ibaraki and flown high up into the air. They reacted swiftly, cutting off Ibaraki's arm and taking it home as a trophy. Abe no Seimei warned them that the oni would come to retrieve it within seven days. On the seventh day, the hero's "mother" came to visit. As soon as she entered his house, she revealed herself to be Ibaraki-doji in disguise, who took back his arm and disappeared into the night.

Pretty much every aspect of Ibaraki-doji's design is tied to some part of these legends. Flying is directly from many of the tales involving him (thematically, I imagine the sculpt as either shapeshifting to have wings or just using plain magic to fly, which is supported by the miniature's dynamic pose). Four, the number of death in Japan, repeats four times in the Special Attack when Ibaraki moves 4 spaces, attacks with 4 dice, moves 4 spaces, and attacks again with 4 dice. 7 Life is a direct nod to the seven days that Ibaraki waited to retrieve his arm. Insatiable Greed placing a timer on his life emulates that countdown nicely if he sits around for too long. The sculpt even has a wound on its side, paying subtle homage to his future legend where he would be wounded by a hero! A lot of attention and detail went into making sure that Ibaraki-doji is not only exciting for HeroScape but authentic to his legends.

CREATIVITY

Spoiler Alert!

Ibaraki-doji directly plays into the existing Yokai framework. He is slow on his own, which makes Seimei's Shapeshift and Kincho's mobility invaluable in getting him onto the battlefield. Insatiable Greed provides another choice for where you want your Order Markers to be, and the choice will only become more difficult as more Yokai emerge (contrary to what you might expect, sometimes it's worth it to sacrifice a wound on Ibaraki if it gives you the chance to teleport Kincho or activate another ability at the right moment). Demon of Rashomon is a simple Special Attack that gives the faction some teeth against squads and a legitimate way to get in more than one attack per turn. Watching him hunt down ninjas and other figures that run away is also great fun.

Overall, I think that Ibaraki-doji extends the creativity of the Yokai in a simple and thematic way. When combined with Seimei and Kincho (plus or minus Masha Shingai), the Yokai are one of the most unique factions out there, and they really shine when played together.

PLAYABILITY

Spoiler Alert!

The Yokai still aren't going to be winning any tournament games. Having Ibaraki-doji certainly helps them do more than just kite melee and actually turns any of your Yokai into legitimate threats, but at the end of the day, you're still basing pretty much your entire offensive potential around one hero. If Ibaraki-doji dies, then the Yokai can really struggle to kill anything afterward.

Still, the more that I play with them, the more crazy things that I've seen them pull off. Seimei's Shapeshift and Night of the Yokai create a ton of tactical depth, and they consistently reward the player for getting creative and intelligently setting up traps for the opponent. They're a ton of fun to use, and in the hands of skilled players, they can pack a surprising punch. Throw in the fact that they're very interesting to fight against and can be a ton of fun in scenarios, and I'd argue that they're very playable, even if they won't be winning double-blind tournaments any time soon. Just take Kincho and catapult Ibaraki-doji inside of a castle if you don't believe me.

AVAILABILITY

• Abe no Seimei's sculpt (Nymph, Alseid) is a Common figure that was released recently. It has extremely high availability still, averaging $2-$3.
  
• Kincho's sculpt (Tanuki) still has strong availability. It has 9 on MiniatureMarket, 25 at RPGLocker, and 54+ sculpts on eBay. It generally averages $3-$5.
  
• Ibaraki-doji's sculpt (Oni Night Haunter) is a bit on the rarer end, sitting at a total of 51 sculpts online right now (9 at MiniatureMarket, 6 at TrollAndToad, 9 at Sun City Games, and 27 on eBay). That's not taking into account him also being in stock at Paizo, so the availability is likely higher than it seems. He averages for $3-$7.

Thanks for your time and consideration. It took a bit of crunching to get Ibaraki ready for review this past week after I first saw that he had enough availability to pass muster, but I think that he adds a lot to the faction and that it is better off for having him under immediate consideration to more fully flesh out the Yokai.

[Scytale]

Abe no Seimei and Kincho have been removed from the process by the designer's request.

And they're back with a friend. I was willing to review Abe and Kincho before, and this new addition doesn't change that. It feels strange for that particular sculpt to have Flying, but I get Japanese lore, so I'm ok with it. The rest of the design is pretty cool, especially Insatiable Greed and how it works with the faction.

to review Abe no Seimei
to review Kincho
to review Ibaraki-doji

[Scytale]

Agrith-Naar by @Sir Heroscape

A miniature this awesome-looking deserves to be in the game. Believe me, it's fantastic in person.

Balance

Agrith-Naar is terrifying to behold, and I mean both in terms of stats and powers and the fearsome miniature. Whirlwind Attack with Attack 5, and not just Flying but bonding to get into position? Terrifying indeed. While his hunger weakens his survivability a bit, Life 6 and Defense 3 are solid, though not exceptional.

The Fen Hydra is a useful comparison point at a similar cost, with the Hydra also known for its devastating offensive output. Its Attack value is lower than the Demon's, and Agrith can theoretically get more attacks in a turn, but Reach and the versatility of Hydra Heads (allowing the Hydra to focus its attacks on a single figure if it prefers) make up for that. The Hydra's Defense 6 is a lot tougher to crack than Defense 3, but doing so also cuts into its offensive power. Hard to say which one is better, so at least Agrith's price tag is in the ballpark. Though it is worth noting that Agrith can bond while the Hydra cannot.

Theme

An excellent multi-attack is very fitting for the miniature, with it's many arms wielding blades. Being a Ravenous Devourer fits the miniature well too, and the theme of Starved ties well into that mental picture. I don't like the power name "Starved" though. I was active in Sir Heroscape's custom thread when the design shifted towards this version, and the theme was that he was driven mad with hunger when he was unable to devour the meatsack right in front of him. I don't get that from the name "Starved," though. With that power name I wonder why he doesn't suffer when isn't taking turns, and why doesn't his starvation end after a good meal?

Creativity

This design takes familiar territory (Whirlwind Assault) and gives it a whole new spin. The addition of Starved brings a danger and a gamble to maximizing Whirlwind, even beyond the existing dangers of jumping in the middle of enemy figures. The more figures he ends up next to, the more likely he will take starvation damage. That's the kind of clever interaction, using mostly existing powers, that I really enjoy, as it's easy to understand but also with interesting gameplay decisions.

Playability

First off, is Agrith-Naar overpowered? His offensive potential is terrifying, so much so that a wise opponent will do his or her best to minimize Agrith's first strike damage. Which is much easier said than done; it's rather difficult to spread figures enough to prevent the Ravenous one from tearing into more than two figures. And it's not merely offensive "potential." When Agrith flies in, squad figures die.

His Life/Defense make up for that, though, despite looking fairly solid. We all know too well what happens when you put Mimring a little too close to the front lines for that perfect attack. Agrith-Naar's survivability is about on par with Mimring when you add in Starved. The Demon is more likely to clear out the figures near him (unlike a painful whiff with Fire Line), but being a Whirlwind melee figure he doesn't want to just get close to the front lines, he wants to jump past it into enemy territory. He kills a lot, but falls quickly too.

Which is fun and dynamic, and he's pretty easy to use effectively. Dive in headfirst and kill as much as possible. But therein lies the problem. The design ends up undermining its most unique features thanks to its stats.

Attack 5 is really great. Good enough to do damage with nearly every attack, tearing through squads. It's too good to pass up, really. But doesn't the potential blowback from Starved make it worrisome to do that? No. Taking one wound isn't a deterrent for the amount of damage Agrith is likely to inflict on his opponent's army and formation. He's a cruise missile that you know won't last long, but will land with a bang. Starved may cause a wound now and again, but it just isn't a concern.

So as interesting as the design seems, with tension between Whirlwind Assault and Starved, there really isn't. Ultimately, I felt that Starved was mostly extraneous. If I played Agrith aggressively, I didn't pay it much mind. If I played him conservatively, I didn't worry about it either, since I wasn't engaging many figures anyways. It didn't even give me pause when attacking a hero he was unlikely to kill, since I was willing to accept the wound to get an attack of five (often six with height, thanks to Flying) on the hero plus one or more other figures. In theory one has to avoid placing him adjacent to a friendly figure, but with the Acolytes' ability to Summon him in the middle of the fight that wasn't a concern, nor was it a concern when I was playing him without bonding, as he's pretty sharky anyway.

Summary

I love the idea of a dangerous whirlwind-assaulter held back by Starved, and a terrifying short-lived whirlwind-assaulter is fun too. This design is the second, but is held back from greatness by trying to be the first. As it stands, Starved just feels extraneous, neither important to the design nor necessary for theme (as being a Ravenous Devourer already handles the theme, and he very much plays that way). Give him one less Life and he'd play the same. Agrith-Naar is fun to play with and against and isn't overpowered, but needs to either make Starved an important part of play or get rid of it.

I vote Nay to induct Agrith-Naar into the SoV.