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  #13  
Old August 8th, 2018, 01:34 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Arrow Gruts bring their own particular flavor of important and subtle positioning decisions. I consider playing them basically every year (along with TKN, and 'trons, and my usual blended armies) but the only year I did is the only year I didn't make semis, so I manage to talk myself out of it.
All in favor of me returning to the main event next year to keep @dok out, say 'aye'.
It'd be worth the risk to bring you back into the fold.

Last edited by dok; August 8th, 2018 at 05:17 PM. Reason: And when did I have height advantage that game? All I remember is chasers looming over my startzone
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  #14  
Old August 10th, 2018, 08:00 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

I'm definitely planning on playing at least one if not more events next year. I love demo-ing, but no 'scape has been too high a price to pay!

And I was referring to a different game (Take 2/Cut the Cake?) and your Krav; aka the only time you've ever beaten me at Heroscape.

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  #15  
Old August 10th, 2018, 08:17 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Ah yes, I remember that forgotten die now. No good deed goes unpunished.

Looking forward to next year already!
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  #16  
Old August 15th, 2018, 06:45 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

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Cleon 2015 (5-0 Day 1, made Day 2)
Braxas
Fen Hydra
Marro Warriors
Deathreavers x2
He made top 8, but I'm not sure if you're making statements about that.

He beat me in the first round, when I brought 3x Romans, Marcus, Valgard, NGS, Isamu... I think. My first and only foray into day 2 RtW. Far cry from the Raelin + Greenscales army I ran before, but still too strong for RtW it seemed.

RtW is hard to wrap my head around; this is a nice primer. It seems like you wanna go 3-0 with the worst army you can get away with, although to hit day 2 as consistently as some of you do, that's probably not the case. I'd like AG's plus Krug, but that's probably too strong?

Maybe I can get in a tourney or two next year.

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Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #17  
Old August 16th, 2018, 01:01 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
RtW is hard to wrap my head around; this is a nice primer. It seems like you wanna go 3-0 with the worst army you can get away with, although to hit day 2 as consistently as some of you do, that's probably not the case.
I don't think the current format really rewards skirting the bottom edge any more than it rewards skirting the top edge. I think you pretty much want to fly in the middle of the meta and try to eke out your games.

Still, it takes a good heaping of matchup luck. That's just the nature of the format. Making semifinals 8/9 years is IMO my most exceptional Heroscape achievement, but there's been a lot of luck along the way to keep that going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I'd like AG's plus Krug, but that's probably too strong?
Maybe, but I don't think so. There was a huge range in army power this year. I think the new alternating format has both increased the variance in armies and slightly ratcheted up the average.

I strongly considered Raelin, AG x3, Swog x4, Nerak, Krug, Marcu. I'm playing it in the online event and I'm 2-0 with it and 1-0 against it, so there's that. As I mentioned earlier I've considered AGs every year for the last 7 years but usually talk myself out of it.

The biggest issue for AGs in my mind is they are probably more map and matchup dependent than most armies. On the flip side, though, they are very hard to play for the uninitiated.
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  #18  
Old August 17th, 2018, 04:11 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Splash!

Spoiler Alert!


Bread AND Butter

Spoiler Alert!
I think there's a bit of a continuum between these two styles, at least given the way I think about them. When I think about the armies I make that you're classing as "Bread AND Butter", I'm thinking not just as "melee and range", but more as "let me have figures with interacting roles such that there are at least two places to put OMs during the meat of the game, and force the player to make good decisions on pingponging between the two". Which, granted, you summarized nicely in your description. But I think this sort of thinking is similar (not the same, but similar) to the splash concept of "add complexity to the build by forcing the player to manage a bunch of small pieces".

Really, when you compare Q23's 2014 army or even vegiedad's 2017 army to my 2016 army, the main difference is that my ranged squad has multiples. It's really not night and day. When you look at something like Q23's 2017 or 2018 builds there's additional stuff thrown in that doesn't have as clear a role; it's more adding complexity for the sake of making it harder to pilot. But, as I said at the start, it's a continuum.

I guess you could even extend it past that, and say there's a spectrum from "Uniques Mostly" to "Bread AND Butter", with "Splash" in the middle.

Last edited by dok; August 17th, 2018 at 04:40 PM.
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  #19  
Old August 17th, 2018, 07:19 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Splash!

Spoiler Alert!


Bread AND Butter

Spoiler Alert!
I think there's a bit of a continuum between these two styles, at least given the way I think about them. When I think about the armies I make that you're classing as "Bread AND Butter", I'm thinking not just as "melee and range", but more as "let me have figures with interacting roles such that there are at least two places to put OMs during the meat of the game, and force the player to make good decisions on pingponging between the two". Which, granted, you summarized nicely in your description. But I think this sort of thinking is similar (not the same, but similar) to the splash concept of "add complexity to the build by forcing the player to manage a bunch of small pieces".

Really, when you compare Q23's 2014 army or even vegiedad's 2017 army to my 2016 army, the main difference is that my ranged squad has multiples. It's really not night and day. When you look at something like Q23's 2017 or 2018 builds there's additional stuff thrown in that doesn't have as clear a role; it's more adding complexity for the sake of making it harder to pilot. But, as I said at the start, it's a continuum.

I guess you could even extend it past that, and say there's a spectrum from "Uniques Mostly" to "Bread AND Butter", with "Splash" in the middle.
Some thoughts:
1. Major Q23's 2014 is not a splash army. I like it and still talk about it because it was the first time I saw 1x Mezzos used in a major tournament, but that does not make it a splash army.

2. Vegie is missing the 1st true splash armies: Nathan's and William's 2015 main event armies.

Q23:
2x Mezzos
1x Rats
Frost Giant
Heirloom
Marro Warriors
Otonashi

Can't remember the specifics of Nathan's but I believe it involved 1x Knights of Weston, Alastair, Finn, Tarn?

3. The way we generally think about Splash armies is no more than 150 points or 9 figures of anything.

4. Just because an army fits this definition doesn't make it Splash. A true Splash army imo fills in at least 3-4 of the main roles in a Splash army. Sounds like I should write and post my "How to Build a Splash Army" guide sometime...

5. Will's 2017 army has each figure in a different role.
2017:
3x Drones (cheap, cost efficient, fast, good board control, decent damage output)
Raelin (Raelin, excellent board control)
1x Mezzos (range, anti-common, great board control)
Alastair (bruiser)
1x Rats (screen, great board control)

6. Will's 2018 army has redundancy as it is designed to be defensive yet still possess offensive threats. I'd actually classify it as a Toolbox army (along with my 2015 and 2018 main event armies).
2018:
2x Axegrinders (similar to Drones)
Darrak (bruiser, flanker)
1x PKs (anti-range tech, great board control)
Tarn (screen, decent damage output, good board control)
Tandros (screen with a range option and some decent damage output, great board control)
Arkmer (efficient body, solid screen, good board control)
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  #20  
Old August 18th, 2018, 10:34 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post

RtW is hard to wrap my head around; this is a nice primer. It seems like you wanna go 3-0 with the worst army you can get away with, although to hit day 2 as consistently as some of you do, that's probably not the case. I'd like AG's plus Krug, but that's probably too strong?
I don't think it's near as difficult as everybody makes it out to be. Bring something that you can manage well and something that you think others will struggle to manage.

Now, what you manage and what you force others to manage, that can be quite interesting.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h3q6...wujcr8vVf8e21G

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  #21  
Old August 19th, 2018, 12:03 AM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

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Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post

RtW is hard to wrap my head around; this is a nice primer. It seems like you wanna go 3-0 with the worst army you can get away with, although to hit day 2 as consistently as some of you do, that's probably not the case. I'd like AG's plus Krug, but that's probably too strong?
I don't think it's near as difficult as everybody makes it out to be. Bring something that you can manage well and something that you think others will struggle to manage.

Now, what you manage and what you force others to manage, that can be quite interesting.
It's actually kinda true, we probably overcomplicate things slightly. That said, I was able to go 3-0 in RtW rounds against my army because my opponents weren't able to leverage the weapons in my Toolbox to their maximum potential. I was also able to win two of my games with my army (including vs. a strong player The Orange Mailman using 4x Mezzos and Nilfheim). I lost to Dok in a game that I was able to at least keep close and perhaps could have won but for a round in which I mismanaged 2 of 3 OMs. I needed some good dice and for Dok to have some bad dice and it happened, but I just wasn't able to close it (managed to kill Torky and the Grubs though). Other loss was to Nick running 4x Stingers and Braxas; I had tools to kill them but not quite enough, was able to kill Braxas and 7 Stingers. Could have won with a stronger army, but definitely not at least one of the RtW rounds.
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  #22  
Old August 19th, 2018, 02:13 AM
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What Can You Do

It's actually one of the reasons I like events that require my opponents to play with my stuff. There's very little I don't feel comfortable playing and I can usually create something janky enough that it'll give others issues. I know that allowed me to win two of my reverse games. I don't really know exactly how I'd classify my armies since my typical army building procedures tend to start with a unit and then try to make an army that'll work.

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  #23  
Old August 19th, 2018, 06:42 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

Your army this year (4th, Templar, Raelin) easily fits in vegie's "Bread AND Butter" category.
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  #24  
Old August 19th, 2018, 11:43 PM
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Re: Reverse the Whip Army Archetypes

This whole article is definitely biased to my own experiences, and since I played against Major Q23's army in 2014, and designed vegie dad's 2017 army, those are probably a bit forced into the Splash category. To me, Splash armies should have more than two options for sure.

I think 150 points in one thing is a good rule for Splash army; my goal for this year with my Knights x1/Alastair + Tagawa Samurai Archers x2 was to make an army that looked like Splash but was actually a "Bread and Butter" army. Knights and Alastair is good.

Overcomplication of Reverse the Whip is fun actually!
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