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  #181  
Old July 3rd, 2018, 04:47 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I'm okay with the idea of a restricted list, but my list would look a bit different or at least have different rules than the one above. I've taken Q10, KA, & KMA to a tourney before and even though each of them is pretty good they still get owned by Stinger x6 and the like. Don't know why you feel the need to prevent someone from running an all unique card army with no bonding. Then placing the dragons and their bonding squad on the list seems like an unjust punishment to them. Common squads that have open bonding with multiple heroes seem more terrifying that a common squad that can bond with exactly one hero.
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  #182  
Old July 3rd, 2018, 04:53 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

This is the list that is used in SoCal. I don't know how they came up with it or how well it works for them.

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  #183  
Old July 3rd, 2018, 07:15 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

It really should be connected to the local metagame. Such a thing would be totally useless and weird in Baltimore, where we don't have this issue at all. But I know they use one, or used one for a long time, in the DFW events. It's just something developed by the locals.

Heroscape itself doesn't need this. It's a cure searching for a disease.

But if your own local meta is getting tired of repetition, then do stuff like this. It's you tournament, make it something your people will want to attend.

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  #184  
Old July 3rd, 2018, 10:01 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

A restricted list has its time and place. Not my cup of coffee, though.

The good news is that one can still sport 4x of some of the most potent units, Cathars included.

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  #185  
Old July 5th, 2018, 04:04 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I actually don't mind that idea too much, though I feel making the Knights and Gilbert mutually exclusive kind of neuters both of them....
Yeah, it's a bit tough—similarly for, say, Nilfheim and the Greenscales. But most of those units have other options: there are other heroes to pair with knights, Greenscales have other dragons they can play with, and Nilf can still be effective on his own. Now, Gilbert with no knights to play with is a tough sell, granted, but mostly it works out okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I've taken Q10, KA, & KMA to a tourney before and even though each of them is pretty good they still get owned by Stinger x6 and the like.
Well, sure: thus the 300pt restriction on restricted commons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Don't know why you feel the need to prevent someone from running an all unique card army with no bonding.
Not sure what you mean: there's nothing about the restricted list that prevents running an army with no common or uncommon cards in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Then placing the dragons and their bonding squad on the list seems like an unjust punishment to them.
Now that's just an unfair characterization. There are 9 dragons in the game that you can use with the Greenscales—not to mention Zogross—and only 4 of them are on the restricted list. So that leaves you 6 options to play with the Greenscales. Sure, Greenscales and Nilf (or any of the other 3) is a kick-ass army that's easy to mop the floor with pretty much any opponent ... but that's pretty much the point. You have to put a little more work into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Common squads that have open bonding with multiple heroes seem more terrifying that a common squad that can bond with exactly one hero.
Again, not sure what you mean here: the number of heroes that a squad can bond with has nothing to do with whether they're on the restricted list or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
This is the list that is used in SoCal. I don't know how they came up with it or how well it works for them.
It's an adaptation of someone else's list (I want to say the Texas guys, but I may be misremembering). I tweaked it a bit—throwing the VC guys in and keeping it updated—both at the time we adapted it and a couple of times since. It's almost entirely based on the power rankings from dok: basically anything with an "A-" or higher is on the list, with very few exceptions. My only real innovation was to break the list into primary vs filler—originally it was one big list, but I found that not being able to throw in Isamu when you had 10 points left over and another restricted unit in your army was just too damned annoying.

I think it's worked pretty well. Prior to the restricted list, if you dared to bring any even remotely creative army, you were just steamrolled by these same old armies over and over, and the people didn't even have to try hard to do it. And the final matches would always come down to practically mirror images of armies fighting themselves/each other. I mean, I already find tournament games somewhat boring, and this just exacerbated the whole situation. Nowadays, our tournaments are a lot more fun, IMHO. I suppose some people think tournaments are not supposed to be fun—that they're deadly serious competition or whatnot—but no one in our group has made that argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vasel
And I've seen some people on the Internet seem to have a problem with mixing this with the rest of the game, which makes no sense to me, because, I mean, you already are having knights fight robots, how is throwing Spider-Man into the mix that big of a deal?
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  #186  
Old July 5th, 2018, 07:51 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I can get behind a restricted list. I've not played enough to feel that way yet, but God willing someday will. Seems like a simple way to keep army builds from becoming stagnant.
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  #187  
Old July 5th, 2018, 02:18 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmon View Post
I can get behind a restricted list. I've not played enough to feel that way yet, but God willing someday will. Seems like a simple way to keep army builds from becoming stagnant.
I've been playing competitively since 2009, running tournaments since 2010, and I've never thought army builds were "stagnant."

Do not implement something like this unless your local meta actually needs it, is my suggestion. If your local people are bringing the same armies over and over, then go ahead with it. But don't do it if you don't need to.

My 2 cents.

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  #188  
Old July 5th, 2018, 10:45 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmon View Post
I can get behind a restricted list. I've not played enough to feel that way yet, but God willing someday will. Seems like a simple way to keep army builds from becoming stagnant.
I've been playing competitively since 2009, running tournaments since 2010, and I've never thought army builds were "stagnant."

Do not implement something like this unless your local meta actually needs it, is my suggestion. If your local people are bringing the same armies over and over, then go ahead with it. But don't do it if you don't need to.

My 2 cents.
I agree Dadscaper. What I'm planning on doing here soon is to set up different formats where maybe some of the top tier armies might not do as well. Make those players that bring the same army rethink it a little. Its all in good fun to make new game modes anyway. I would do it like that instead of making a restricting list. By the way since this is the Cathar Spearmens Book I might mention that I only lost 1 game in my last tournament to a spam army of these guys combined with the airborne elite. After their Airborne elite got to land on turn 1 and kill half of my army with grenades the cathars finished me of course.
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  #189  
Old July 6th, 2018, 09:14 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I think for the most part it depends on how competitive your area is. Playing tournaments for tons of games you always find the group of people who play whatever off the Wall thing they want and try to do their best. Then you have the people who will play the absolute best thing in order to have the best chance at winning it all. Once the latter groups becomes all encompassing or at least the majority of the playerbase a restricted list like this is needed.

It’s been years since I’ve played a ton of scape and have only played a few games since getting back in. My friend and I who are pretty competitive will likely use this list to figure out competitive and then implement it to prevent us from abusing only the good units. Granted we probably have 50-100 games before we would get tired of competitive. At least using the CUC rats.
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  #190  
Old July 6th, 2018, 01:34 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

GenCon has survived all these years without a Restricted List. The DFW area started using one, and I would never presume to second-guess those guys on their decisions for their local scene, but if GenCon can survive without one, then your local group likely can, too.

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  #191  
Old July 6th, 2018, 02:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
GenCon has survived all these years without a Restricted List. The DFW area started using one, and I would never presume to second-guess those guys on their decisions for their local scene, but if GenCon can survive without one, then your local group likely can, too.
I’ve never been to Gencon and don’t know if full results are ever posted but I always assumed all the different formats were to make the better units less appealing so then wouldn’t dominating.
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  #192  
Old July 6th, 2018, 03:43 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Of course! Every scene has its own formats that it prefers. As it should be! We have our own different formats that we use, too! To my mind, that is quite different from posting one list for all events and saying "your armies may never be so-and-so." Mixing formats is one thing; making rules like this is quite another.

As I wrote repeatedly in the thread linked in my signature block about running your own tournaments, do whatever works best for your local tournaments. Make the rules, use the formats, that get people to attend your events. I wouldn't lightly encourage the use of Restricted lists because I think it's a sledgehammer of a solution, but if there's anybody who knows about running tournaments it's the DFW guys. They are doing what's right for them and so they should.

For me, I've never thought such a thing was needed here, where I am. And none has ever been used at GenCon, and most other places don't use them either. Doesn't mean that other things aren't used to mix up formats, but no long-term army restrictions.

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