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  #13  
Old May 8th, 2018, 03:58 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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What does S mean, for Raelin?
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Old May 8th, 2018, 04:00 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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I think the Sacred Band is also undervalued if you know what you are doing.
I've been a big fan of the Sacred Band for a long time, ever since I finally picked them up (they were some of the last official units I got, partially due to their reputation...). I think they're massively underrated. Granted, I think they're tonnes better now than they were when they were released - the need to take an all Disciplined army is a lot less painful now we have a lot of strong Disciplined units around, including the Redcoats. They need an all Disciplined build and Marcus to work well (that third defence die and fifth move point are both essential), but once you've got that, I think they're arguably better than the Romans due to not needing to maintain a tight formation. You can then essentially use them almost like Knights or Heavy Gruts, and while both of those are still better, they're also 20 points more expensive per squad. Don't bother with Parmenio, though - he's just bad.
Unfortunately, mixing squads of 10th and Sacred Band is significantly worse as of late, seeing as you don't have 24 hexes to play with.

Their biggest problem when compared to Romans is they lack a killer bonding hero: Me-Burq-Sa. MBS is absolutely incredible for his points, and a bonding range option is really the only thing Romans have over other bonding melee. They also have a defense cap of 3, and the 4th die is huge. This really, really, REALLY hurts, and is a huge reason why they are a B+.

I also disagree they can be used like Gruts- Gruts need to maintain formation. That's the only way to get the most value out of them. Romans are much closer in play style to Gruts than SB.

All this being said, SB are a middling to high B+. They're extremely solid... just not good enough to be an A-.
Good points, all - not having the space to pair them with Redcoats hurts, and Me-Burq-Sa is a solid bonding hero it's a shame to lose. No 4th Defence die does hurt, but all things being equal I think I'd usually prefer the strategic flexibility, especially since the Romans will be defending on equal or lower numbers once they start to be wittled down. In 24-space General Wars, at least, I reckon SB are a better choice than Romans.

That's also a good point with the Gruts, though I think their stats are solid enough to allow them to break formation a little more readily than Romans, particularly since Disengage may allow them to go after a juicy target behind enemy lines (i.e. Raelin).


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  #15  
Old May 8th, 2018, 04:09 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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I think the Sacred Band is also undervalued if you know what you are doing.
I've been a big fan of the Sacred Band for a long time, ever since I finally picked them up (they were some of the last official units I got, partially due to their reputation...). I think they're massively underrated. Granted, I think they're tonnes better now than they were when they were released - the need to take an all Disciplined army is a lot less painful now we have a lot of strong Disciplined units around, including the Redcoats. They need an all Disciplined build and Marcus to work well (that third defence die and fifth move point are both essential), but once you've got that, I think they're arguably better than the Romans due to not needing to maintain a tight formation. You can then essentially use them almost like Knights or Heavy Gruts, and while both of those are still better, they're also 20 points more expensive per squad. Don't bother with Parmenio, though - he's just bad.
Unfortunately, mixing squads of 10th and Sacred Band is significantly worse as of late, seeing as you don't have 24 hexes to play with.

Their biggest problem when compared to Romans is they lack a killer bonding hero: Me-Burq-Sa. MBS is absolutely incredible for his points, and a bonding range option is really the only thing Romans have over other bonding melee. They also have a defense cap of 3, and the 4th die is huge. This really, really, REALLY hurts, and is a huge reason why they are a B+.

I also disagree they can be used like Gruts- Gruts need to maintain formation. That's the only way to get the most value out of them. Romans are much closer in play style to Gruts than SB.

All this being said, SB are a middling to high B+. They're extremely solid... just not good enough to be an A-.
Good points, all - not having the space to pair them with Redcoats hurts, and Me-Burq-Sa is a solid bonding hero it's a shame to lose. No 4th Defence die does hurt, but all things being equal I think I'd usually prefer the strategic flexibility, especially since the Romans will be defending on equal or lower numbers once they start to be wittled down. In 24-space General Wars, at least, I reckon SB are a better choice than Romans.

That's also a good point with the Gruts, though I think their stats are solid enough to allow them to break formation a little more readily than Romans, particularly since Disengage may allow them to go after a juicy target behind enemy lines (i.e. Raelin).
SB are a nice choice in a 24 hex GW, although I'd still take Romans. If it was still 24 hexes, I might bump them to A-. I really do like them a lot (I'm a sucker for bonding melee, hence Spiders at B). Bonding melee can never truly be bad (except for Groks...)

Absolutely right on Gruts being able to break formation a bit more... although Tethering is absolutely vital for Heavies, whereas it's not quite as necessary for Romans or SB. (I'll have a whole article dedicated solely to the strategy of Tethering in the next month or so).

Looking at the rankings again, there are maybe a couple units I'd bump up to A- before Sacred Band and that's it. They're an Elite B+.

Thanks for the input!
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  #16  
Old May 8th, 2018, 04:27 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Not sure I buy Raelin being stronger than Q9.
Given an option between bringing any army that includes Raelin, or any army that includes Q9, I think Raelin would be the safer bet. However, I don't think she is a whole grade better.

As far as Artifacts go, there are some other moves that seem odd...

Atlaga*(90, A-)
Still seems like a good sniper and with more heroes that bolt may be more useful, as well as 120 for other common clean up is fairly pricey in smaller armies.

Marcu Esenwein (20, A-) and Marro Warriors (50, A)
Don't see why these guys should be with the big boys. If you have 20 points left you should rebuild your army instead of throwing in a clean up figure.



Ashigaru Harquebus (60*, B-) not sure how they can be better when the startzones are smaller and points are less for the 200 point hero.


MacDirk Warriors (80*, C+) How?

Minions of Utgar (110*, A-)
and Sentinels of Jandar (110*, A-) again if the start zones are smaller, shouldn't they stay the same in value?

Tarn Viking Warriors (50, C+) again, how?

Khosumet the Darklord (75, C) ha, ha, ha. No.

It seems like you have a preference for Unique squads and fillers. I think if you are building an army that includes fillers you are building the wrong army for that point total. Also if you theory is that reverse the whip is the drive, I think you should look at the Bugbears and Mohicans. Those are tough units to use well. I think the Sacred Band is also undervalued if you know what you are doing. The Warforged are another tricky squad to get the most out of which may make them valuable if you know how to use them well.
A lot of stuff here, appreciate the input!

Raelin provides more value for her points than any other unit, and makes just about any army better for an insanely cheap price. She'd be an A+ at 90 points; at 80, she's a bargain. Q9 is great, but he isn't quite on her level (he's also not as efficient as Rats or possibly Marro Warriors).

Atlaga: a single-attack per turn, non-bonding hero with a once-per-game power that maybe swings a game doesn't belong on the level of A-'s. He's really not that efficient, and he's extremely squishy with a very short range. That said, he's not bad, but I don't think I bring him over, say, Concan, who has an amazing body (4/4 with 5 life for only 80 points).

MWs and Marcus are amazing. MWs are incredible in the hands of an amazing player; I'd rather give just about any other unit in RtW to my opponent than MWs. Marcu is incredibly efficient. 6 life with 4 attack is great, and, more than Isamu, is consistently worth the low investment.

Harqs by themselves are a nice alternative to 4th and 10th. Kato and Yari are bad, but 3x Harqs and Raelin at 260 is a surprisingly solid core.

MacDirks are very potent with Raelin and Alastair. They will quickly hit Heavy and Knight level stats. The potency of 6 quality attacks in a turn can not be understated. 3x MacDirks, Raelin, and Alastair is quite solid, and I'd take it over anything rated lower than B+, as well as some of the B+s.

Minions and Sentinels were never A- to begin with. The meta shift has no real effect on them (outside of the increase of Hounds, which wreck them).

Tarn are almost always worth the 50 points. They proved a cheap screen alternative for Rats. They give up Scatter to gain actual offensive relevance.

Khosumet should be a C, that's from an earlier draft. Good catch! Wasn't paying attention to the low units.

RtW isn't the only drive, but it is considered. HSBs and Mohicans are good, but B+ is very accurate for their power level. I already discussed the reasoning for SB in this thread. Warforged are ok, but really, they aren't as good as the other things, and they also are pretty easy to play, making them a bad choice for RtW. They're a strong B, but not a weak B+.
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  #17  
Old May 8th, 2018, 04:33 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by wriggz View Post
Don't see why these guys should be with the big boys. If you have 20 points left you should rebuild your army instead of throwing in a clean up figure.

I think if you are building an army that includes fillers you are building the wrong army for that point total.
I really don't understand this at all. Historically, this is inaccurate. Many winning armies in all types of events contain fillers. While an interesting army building theory, the results indicate otherwise.

If you peruse the results, you'll especially notice the prevalence of Marro Warriors.
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  #18  
Old May 8th, 2018, 05:27 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
There's weird artifacts throughout (at least on my computer), they look like this: 



What does S mean, for Raelin?
Basically higher than A+. An alternative ranking to the standard grade system we and the American education system used (A, B, C, D, F) that goes SSS, SS, S, A, B, C, D, F. This system originated because A rank didn't cut it for some which I suppose is the case here. Can't wait for the SS and SSS figures to reveal themselves.
This. S is the top tier; in this case, just Raelin. I don't foresee a need for SS or SSS in this scenario.
Sarcasm. But if you did want to reorder the rankings to spread them out more you do have those top 2 tiers empty.

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Old May 8th, 2018, 05:29 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings


Well met!

Excuse my ignorance - what is splashing?



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Old May 8th, 2018, 05:37 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Well met!

Excuse my ignorance - what is splashing?

Nothing to excuse- I should define terminology I use. Splashing generally is the use of a common (or commons) as either 1-ofs or 2-ofs. Splashing Mezzos is incredibly strong, for example- 1x Mezzos is a good use of 65 points.

Splashing in a common (or unique) for the sake of dealing with a specific matchup/unit type is known as teching- Phantom Knights and Warriors of Ashra are both great techs because they do what they do extremely efficiently.

Hope that clears it up!
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Old May 8th, 2018, 05:41 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

Marcu and Isamu are both hard to rank. Marcu is a questionable cleanup figure, and not great as an early game glyph grabber... both because of his eternal hatred. However, as long as the wound glyph is common in tournament play, Marcu is no worse than an A. I personally tend towards leaving Marcu at A.

Isamu is difficult for other reasons, some of which, like the length of rounds in tournament play, are really hard to consider in rankings. However, it's safe to say that probably no unit - not even Raelin or Q9 - blows up as far beyond its list value as often as Isamu does. I think A is fine for Isamu but A+ or S would be fine too. Really, where you rank Isamu in that range says more about the way you are deciding rankings than it does about how good Isamu is.

FWIW I really like Marcu, while Isamu is one of my bottom 3 least favorite units in the game.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 05:45 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

I think we need a completely separate ranking based exclusively on RTW format, in which case the "more complicated" units that are normally B- to A- would be ranked highest. Look at Gencon and other RTW tournament results from the last 6 years and pick out the units in the most winning armies.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 05:51 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Marcu and Isamu are both hard to rank. Marcu is a questionable cleanup figure, and not great as an early game glyph grabber... both because of his eternal hatred. However, as long as the wound glyph is common in tournament play, Marcu is no worse than an A. I personally tend towards leaving Marcu at A.

Isamu is difficult for other reasons, some of which, like the length of rounds in tournament play, are really hard to consider in rankings. However, it's safe to say that probably no unit - not even Raelin or Q9 - blows up as far beyond its list value as often as Isamu does. I think A is fine for Isamu but A+ or S would be fine too. Really, where you rank Isamu in that range says more about the way you are deciding rankings than it does about how good Isamu is.

FWIW I really like Marcu, while Isamu is one of my bottom 3 least favorite units in the game.
I would disagree on Isamu in that I've also seen Marcu do the same thing thanks to his incredible stats. Marcu has a high potential ceiling (not quite as high as Isamu's), but his floor is also quite a bit higher than Isamu's. Marcu will generally do at least something, and 6 life is fantastic with Wannok. Also, Marcu is awesome with Ornak (not a factor in Marcu's rating, but certainly a nice bonus).

I am interested what you mean in the bolded. I mainly look at efficiency and consistency: how efficient is this unit for its cost and how swingy of a unit is. I try not to look too heavily at opportunity cost, but it is inevitable.

For example, I view Airborne and Cyprien as A-'s because they just aren't quite consistent enough. At their peaks, they're borderline A+. At their lows...

FWIW, Wannok is also the reason why I moved Otonashi and Kyntella up to B.
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Old May 8th, 2018, 05:57 PM
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Re: Orc's Power Rankings

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Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
I think we need a completely separate ranking based exclusively on RTW format, in which case the "more complicated" units that are normally B- to A- would be ranked highest. Look at Gencon and other RTW tournament results from the last 6 years and pick out the units in the most winning armies.
Hmm. An interesting idea, but I'm not quite sure how you'd compile it, especially for any units that haven't really been used (the KoM are constantly theorizing about new usages for units, especially splashes).

Also, armies are often comprised of some better and some worse units in RtW. Just being present isn't indicative of power; often times, it's to weaken the rest of the army.
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