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  #5329  
Old February 17th, 2017, 12:29 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Sorry for causing all this turmoil.

This is my first time putting something through the SOV and it's been big learning experience in many ways. I ran Maltis Tez through the pre SOV workshop twice before ever submitting her here, and Bigga Bullfrog has come over to my house on several occasions to playtest her with me. However this was all before the first submission at 50 points. I honestly felt that she was right as 50 points, with 8 move, and the old confusing Evasion Instinct. When I lowered her move to 7, I probably should have just removed her from the process for a few weeks to see what that did, or at the very least lowered her points to 45 or something.

When the 50 point version was rejected, I wasn't really sure how to price her, or how exactly to fix the Evasion Instinct ability. Fortunately @wriggs gave me some feedback in my customs thread (which it out of date btw, I really need to update it.) and suggested the current version of Strategic Repositioning. I liked the version they suggested because it still allowed for Maltis to attack and then mover herself into engagement to hold the line, as well as kill a glyph holder, and then take the glyph. Mechanically it was very similar, but without needing to choose a figure. I spend the rest of the time inbetween submissions running basic tests and set ups to see if anything notable had really changed aside from her move. What troubled me was that I had felt right at 50 points, and I really wasn't sure how to price her. So I did 35, 30, and 25 point tests. I had previously played a game against a friend who had used a ninja army, with Isamu. Vanish was so powerful that game that it cost me the game. I allowed this to influence my pricing of Maltis, because although she can be influential, she is still fairly week, and I was afraid of overpricing her again. So I chose the 25 point mark. I quickly saw many of you saying that this was too low, and I believe that is true.

The big problem with those tests I think, (other than Isamu) was that I didn't compare her to other cards in her price range, that were already in the game, or approved by the SOV/C3V. When the 25 point version was rejected what I saw from the comments was that the only real problem was her points. From the eyes of everyone on here, I seemed to have no idea what I was doing with the points, and to be fair, you weren't completely wrong. I had made an effort, but I hadn't done enough. I felt, and still do, that she is mechanically where she needs to be. The big concern appeared to come from the price.

I don't remember who is was, but I remember someone said something about looking at other figures in the same price range, so that was what I did. Everything heroscape I did for the two days after Maltis was rejected, was look at how Maltis compared to the other 25, 30, 35, and 40 point figures that were official, or SOV/C3V approved. After reviewing everything I felt that the high end of my play tests at 35 points felt more in line with where she needed to be in comparison to other figures in the price range. I do not feel that she has the overall potential and power of Theracus and Sonya Esenwein, while I do feel that she is in line with the likes of the 8th Infantry Pathfinder, Command Courier, Hoplitron, and Seleena. I also kept this post by @Ixe in mind where he said:
Quote:
Low cost units are tough since they provide a pretty narrow window for points. I suspect a hero like Kira Jax or Seleena is a bit more useful overall (the nature of cheap filler favors range) so I'm willing to test as is.
Kira Jax, is now a lower price point, and Seleena is the same price point. I felt I had hit the right mark.

I wasn't sure I should resubmit so soon though, (and i can see that I should have listened to that feeling) but I remembered this post by @Scytale saying:
Quote:
there's nothing wrong with resubmitting with a different point cost if that's what the Judges had a problem with.
and this post by @dok saying
Quote:
I do think she's a bit underpriced now, sorry to say. 35 would feel like the low end of safe for that figure.
So with those posts, and references to the other figures currently in game in mind, I felt that I could make a re-submission this quickly.

If any of you personally feel that I did this wrong, I'm sorry, and I honestly do want to get better at this whole process. In the future, I think I will send messages to everyone in this thread asking for their opinion of a figure before I submit, in addition to submitting everything to the Pre-SOV workshop.
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  #5330  
Old February 17th, 2017, 12:44 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Hey, tried to hit you with some rep for that post, but I'm all out. Thanks for the explanation.

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  #5331  
Old February 17th, 2017, 12:46 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

One thing that you have always had going for you, Leaf It, was your positive attitude. And really, that's the most important thing, so I'm happy to see that you're still wearing it well.

I'm glad this has been a good learning experience for you. I look forward to seeing the evaluations of your excellent contribution to the customs community, and I look forward to seeing what else you cook up.

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  #5332  
Old February 17th, 2017, 09:25 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Assigning points is a difficult matter and I think that it is complicated by the fact that it really addresses two different areas. The first and most obvious is a matter of balance. This is essentially a matter of whether the value a unit earns in the game is reflected by its cost (one of these days I'm going to write something up on power curves in Heroscape to better describe this). The second is a judgment of whether the unit's abilities appropriately matches the canon for its cost. A unit can be perfectly or reasonably balanced point-wise but still not match canon for its abilities at that price-point, or vice-versa. I won't single out any designs, but there have been plenty of unapproved units where this distinction is drawn one way or another.

For Maltis Tez's first submission, I would say it primarily did not pass through Unified Fanscape for the thematic mismatch and complication of the Evasion Instinct power. As a side note, some people voiced that it was unbalanced and was priced a little high. For the second submission, it was a canonical decision that the price was inappropriate for that class of hero, not that it was necessarily unbalanced point-wise.

This is all a very long way of me explaining the situation and saying that I believe Maltis Tez now to be appropriately balanced and matching canon for her price and vote YEA to review. Thank you for your perseverance through this process, Leaf_It. I appreciate you sharing with us the amount of work and effort you have placed into your design.
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  #5333  
Old February 17th, 2017, 11:02 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Quote:
Heck if you don't use glyph, never play capture the flag, kill the king, or heat of battle, you may never see the strength of some units.
Are these factors actually considered? If so, huge props for testing 'scenario play'.
Yes. I test Heat of Battle, dungeon crawls, free-for-alls, team play, and possibly scenarios based on the unit.
How many tests do you run?
I have a personal rule of minimum of a dozen tests across at least four different formats. That number grows if I am uncertain of my vote.
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  #5334  
Old February 17th, 2017, 11:12 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Scytale is not human, he is a MACHINE!

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #5335  
Old February 17th, 2017, 11:26 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Scytale is not human, he is a MACHINE!
Possibly. His mastery of language rules and syntax does suggest brute force programming as opposed to the heuristic learning most people use which is prone to error.


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  #5336  
Old February 17th, 2017, 11:37 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Maltis Tez has received 4 Yea votes to review (superfrog, wriggz, Scytale, and Ixe) and moves forward in the process.




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  #5337  
Old February 17th, 2017, 02:16 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I am always impressed by how you all keep your high standards here through incredible amounts of testing.

I always enjoy the reviews and even more so the comeback designs that give it another try.

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  #5338  
Old February 21st, 2017, 01:11 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Agent Fawcett has passed United Fanscape review and moves forward in the process.
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  #5339  
Old February 27th, 2017, 03:04 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Viceron the Blood Knight (III) by Ixe

Having reviewed old beaker here twice before, I'll be brief. I liked the unit just fine the first time around, but I thought much of the changes made in his second iteration were a mistake. Now we're back full circle with this version having only a 20 point discount and a title change separating him from his 'granddad'. I was fine with his original point cost, he was swingy and fun if not super competitive, but I have no real problem with him being a bit more aggressively priced.

I vote to induct the Viceron the Blood Knight to the SoV.


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  #5340  
Old March 1st, 2017, 11:38 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Maltis Tez has passed United Fanscape review and moves forward in the process.
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