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  #4681  
Old February 15th, 2015, 10:45 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I'm not really a fan of all this debate going on here, especially since it has expanded past submitter + judges. Ideally, Vegietarian and SoA, knowing Kinseth's intent to resubmit, would have commented in Kinseth's thread with their concerns after he withdrew the submission the first time. Barring that, it would have been ideal for Kinseth to throw it in the Pre-SoV workshop to hear their comments there. Unfortunately I'm still not sure they would have commented before this point, so I'm not sure what else to say.

--

I initially voted down to review Uzog because I didn't like the use of markers. I've come around on Uzog. And him being a Durgeth is just too cool*; he just looks so much like a ballooned version of one of them. He would look great alongside them, should he pass the gauntlet.

I see the metagame concerns that Vegie has. I'm not firmly acquainted with the Death Chasers in the competitive scene (although I know they're good), so I won't comment on them myself. I trust us to suss all that out between UR and testing. I will say that his points look low to me as well, and I said so in Kinseth's thread. 80-85 looks much more appropriate to me, but maybe the negative factors mitigate that. I will add that his value in longer games (especially team games or games on really big maps) will be much higher, since he can sit back and chew on a few teammates to accrue skulls while his buddies grab board position, then come out as an uninjured 7-attack monster. I don't think that's a scenario that the LD (or anyone else) has really considered. Still, that's a scenario we can test.

I vote to review Uzog.

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Last edited by capsocrates; February 15th, 2015 at 10:46 PM. Reason: *the Durgeth thing was my idea
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  #4682  
Old February 16th, 2015, 07:13 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Wow. I'm away for a couple of days and this place explodes. Catch up time.

First, I'd like to say I don't particularly mind the discussion going on here, as long as it stays respectful and steers clear of workshopping. Judges are allowed to vote however they wish for whatever reasons they believe in during the screening process, and others are welcome to give their opinions. The discussion can even be helpful for the rest of the Judges to determine our own votes.

Overall Uzog works for me. For gameplay reasons I wish Trophy Skulls was limited to opponent's figures, but its actual gameplay effect can be determined with playtesting.

to review Uzog

Also, I am pleased to announce the Red Ants of Aunstrom have received 4 Yea votes (Soundwarp SG-1, superfrog, infectedsloth, and Son of Arathorn) and are the first Soldiers of Valhalla inductee of 2015! The unit will proceed to C3V Editing and Art before final release.

As the unit's creator, I am honored, and would like to thank @betawolf36 for the submission, the whole Inner Sanctum for being open to working with me and betawolf36 to work them into VC canon, and my fellow Judges for their time spent reviewing and their excellent write-ups.
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  #4683  
Old February 16th, 2015, 07:15 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

It appears I haven't yet voted on Uzog. I don't see any cause to not test him. I see causes for concern, but not enough to deny him a round of tests. to review Uzog

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  #4684  
Old February 16th, 2015, 07:21 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
As the unit's creator, I am honored, and would like to thank @betawolf36 for the submission, the whole Inner Sanctum for being open to working with me and betawolf36 to work them into VC canon, and my fellow Judges for their time spent reviewing and their excellent write-ups.
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  #4685  
Old February 16th, 2015, 07:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I am pleased to announce the Red Ants of Aunstrom have received 4 Yea votes [SIZE=2]
Congrats, Scy! That's a terrific custom and a worthy addition. I am particularly delighted to see one of your customs get in, because of all you've done both as a designer and as a shepherd.

Thanks for everything, and (again), congrats.

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  #4686  
Old February 16th, 2015, 08:44 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Congrats Scytale, the ants look exciting to play. Can't wait till they are officially released and available for online play.

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
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  #4687  
Old February 16th, 2015, 09:18 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

They're heere!!!!

(Congrats Scytale!)

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  #4688  
Old February 17th, 2015, 04:37 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Congrats Scytale.
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  #4689  
Old February 17th, 2015, 04:41 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Uzog has received 4 Yea votes to review (Soundwarp SG-1, capsocrates, Scytale, and superfrog) and moves forward in the process.
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  #4690  
Old February 25th, 2015, 06:17 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Urk by Ninja Status and superfrog

Official Heroscape was around long enough to give us a couple goblin squads, but we never got a hero. I can't say they ever really needed one, but there's certainly nothing wrong with the idea. Let's see how Urk measures up.

Balance

Theoryscape comparisons aren't especially effective with a unit like this which is so closely tied to another units. Darrak Ambershard is somewhat close; though he works differently with his kin, at least he sets a precedent for the cost and a Sneak Attack power. So at least Urk's 65 points isn't outrageous for that potential. The movement boost he gives is much harder to judge, and it makes Goblin Sneak Attack better as well since the two powers work well together.

Really, the balance question here is about his value in Goblin armies. Is he worth drafting into a Goblin army and, by extension, worth putting order markers on? And is an Urk-boosted Goblin army much stronger than a non-Urk one? That's difficult to theoryscape; I'll talk about it under Playability.

Theme

A goblin leader is a classic motif, and they're usually nasty in combat. Urk fits that well enough, with the Commander class, Mob Swarm, and his own Goblin Sneak Attack potential. I like that his stats are mediocre/poor, personally. Bold seems a bit odd at first as a personality choice but it fits his playstyle very well.

One minor issue I have with the theme is that Urk can order around Horned Skull Brutes. A lowly goblin wouldn't normally be able to demand respect from bugbears in D&D (that's more of a hobgoblin thing). It's not so outrageous as to call foul, however. D&D is full of exceptions like this.

One thing I was really cautious of is how well the miniature mixes with the Goblin Cutters. Or rather, how well it stands out from the others. It can sometimes be annoying to pick out heroes than look similar to their squads in Heroscape; for figures as diminutive as the goblins this problem is exaggerated. Does the Silent Wolf Goblin mini stand out? Yes, barely. It's a good thing he has good taste in hats--it's the helmet does it.

Creativity

Mob Swarm is a nice way to give the little commander leader-like synergy without relying on some sort of reverse-bonding. It fits well with the movement/positioning theme the Goblin army has. As I said before, I appreciate the weak stats, and Goblin Sneak Attack is a solidly thematic way to give him bite despite that. The Mob Swarm/Goblin Sneak Attack interaction is especially clever.

Playability

On paper it looks like Urk is easy to use, but he's not. The Goblin faction already suffers from tricky order marker management, and Urk adds another card with new possibilities into the mix. If you try to use Urk early to advance the Goblin forces, he'll end up rushing ahead and getting killed. Sure, you can keep him moving slow, but Mob Swarm is actually a rather poor way to advance the rest of the Army. (Mathematically, not counting Urk himself it is less movement than a turn with Cutters and only slightly more than a turn with Brutes, made worse by crowding and poor climbing potential.) Sending him out too late simply leaves your front line to die off while he hurries to catch up.

Getting the most out of Goblin Sneak Attack is also rather difficult, despite how it seems. Aside from trickiness with positioning, you need to first get your Cutters in position (Cutters, since it's almost always better to take a turn with Brutes if they're in fighting position), then hope they hold out long enough for Urk to get a turn. Even then, it's tough to say that Goblin Sneak Attack is going to be much better than Mob Attack-based Cutter attacks.

And don't expect Urk to play as a defender--his 3 Life/3 Defense don't hold out long.

But being difficult to use isn't the same as being useless. Using him in early midgame can be fairly effective, allowing him to move up Brutes, reposition front-line Cutters, and sneak in some nasty attacks (pun intended). Once the Brutes get up close enough there's little reason to keep using Urk (I'd usually rather make three attacks of four than one attack of six or less), but he can work in the transition between the two.

Perhaps more importantly, the Goblin army can have trouble fitting in tight starting zones. In those cases, Urk can be a reasonable addition to cut down the footprint. This is often true in official dungeon-crawl scenarios.

Summary

Is Urk worth the points and, at least as important, worth putting order markers on? Sometimes, yeah, he can be, if you're good with your order markers. He thematically fits well with the Goblin army, standing out just enough and acting like a bold, vicious, but still diminutive commander. Honestly, I'm a bit on the fence about this one, as he takes a lot of effort, skill, and luck to make him as even good as just another squad of Cutters or Brutes. Ultimately, I think he does have a place, albeit a limited one.

I vote to induct Urk into the SoV.
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  #4691  
Old February 26th, 2015, 02:33 PM
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Couple Things

First off, I wanted to say that superfrog's review for the Hoplitron is not linked properly in the second post in the thread. I discovered this due to some research I was doing. It was mostly because of an intellectual curiosity posed to me by someone about tracking the SoV judge votes. So as I am wont to do I built a spreadsheet with all listed votes and what the judges do and decided to post it here for funsies. (Success and Doom rate are percentages that a judge voted yay or nay and the unit was inducted or turned down respectively)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

~Dysole, who has a spreadsheet for almost everything
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  #4692  
Old February 26th, 2015, 02:36 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

When I meet my creator, I'm prepared to answer for every shot I took.

Interesting, Dysole, thanks!

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