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  #4597  
Old January 5th, 2015, 01:03 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I'm surprised to see the kobolds didn't make it. I hope that doesn't kill the design entirely because they were fun to play.

I'm glad to see the Elgos Knights move through the Unified Fanscape Review, but that does make me wonder on what that means moving forward. They passed through initial SoV voting by the narrowest of margins largely based around the dispute over using Soul Markers on this card given that it is already on Akumaken's. It seems that enough of fanscape is okay with it to go through, but does that have any bearing on how the judges will now vote? Is that issue now put aside for moving forward, or will judges who disagreed be able to shoot it down solely on that basis? As far as general SoV policy, it does seem a bit strange for a contentious unit to make it's way through earlier stages to then get killed only for a reason that the majority ruled was acceptable.
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  #4598  
Old January 5th, 2015, 01:07 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I hope @Scytale doesn't mind me attempting to answer that question, Ixe, but I'm sure the judges will bear in mind everything they've thought and heard throughout the process in their testing and analysis, culminating in their votes. It's like any other kind of vote, really: you gather information and opinions, and bear it all in mind when you do your own evaluation. How much credit you give to each voice is up to you, the voter, and in the end only you are responsible for which lever you pull.

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  #4599  
Old January 5th, 2015, 01:17 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
The Kobolds of Idona Keep did not pass United Fanscape review and are removed from the process. The Inner Sanctum was split on a very close vote. There was not one specific issue that caused the unit to fail but a number of concerns. The issues were not universal either; what would cause a Nay vote for some would not bother others would voted Nay for other reasons. The various reasons were:
  1. The design strays too far from the usual treatment of kobolds. In particular people did not like them going to Jandar.
  2. Constant 4 Attack is too much for miniatures this small.
  3. Synergy with all Warriors is overly broad.
  4. Synergy with Raelin--already one of the best units in the game.
  5. Getting a boost both before and after the Master dies removes any tension; it's a win-win.
Thanks for you consideration. While some of those criticisms are pretty fundamental to the design (namely, Jandar and Warrior), I think there is enough that can be played with. We'll tweak things in the Boot Camp and see if we can make the Kobolds palatable while keeping the spirit of the design.
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  #4600  
Old January 5th, 2015, 01:35 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
I'm glad to see the Elgos Knights move through the Unified Fanscape Review, but that does make me wonder on what that means moving forward. They passed through initial SoV voting by the narrowest of margins largely based around the dispute over using Soul Markers on this card given that it is already on Akumaken's. It seems that enough of fanscape is okay with it to go through, but does that have any bearing on how the judges will now vote? Is that issue now put aside for moving forward, or will judges who disagreed be able to shoot it down solely on that basis? As far as general SoV policy, it does seem a bit strange for a contentious unit to make it's way through earlier stages to then get killed only for a reason that the majority ruled was acceptable.
Dad_Scaper put it pretty clearly.

For myself, I consider the issue closed. The IS had a chance to see it and respond it to it and was ok with it. Since I have no rules-related problem with it I'll accept that decision and will not consider it in my judging.

In that I speak for myself and not the other Judges. Everyone here is free to judge as they see fit.
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  #4601  
Old January 5th, 2015, 03:15 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I vote on Kaligrilith. Too expensive.

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  #4602  
Old January 5th, 2015, 04:03 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
I vote on Kaligrilith. Too expensive.
What price are you feeling is too high? The $15 that some sites are selling for, the 8.99 that Auggies has 13 of? Would appreciate your input on that.

Thanks

PS - I have messaged Auggies about the availability of that sculpt, how they have so many and how they obtain them. I'll post what I find out.

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  #4603  
Old January 5th, 2015, 04:21 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

8.99 is on the high side. 15 is unreasonable. (to me, at least).

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  #4604  
Old January 5th, 2015, 04:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I got my Kaligrilith mini in the mail today!
It IS a nice sculpt. Paid $9.95 on eBay, which I think was reasonable for the quality.
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  #4605  
Old January 5th, 2015, 06:47 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Meh, sorry I've been avoiding voting on Kaligrilith. I'm not really the best judge for mini pricing, and I was hoping the other judges would decide his fate without me. 15.00 bucks is exactly 5 times higher than I would ever pay for a single miniature, but... I'm me, I can just MacGyver together what ever I want.

So... I'm abstaining if that is a thing which I can do, if not it's basically a then.


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  #4606  
Old January 5th, 2015, 07:19 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1 View Post
So... I'm abstaining if that is a thing which I can do, if not it's basically a then.
Well, in this case it's one and the same, since an abstain would lock it anyways.

Therefore Kalagrith has received 4 Nay votes to review (Son of Arathorn, vegietarian18, superfrog, and Soundwarp SG-1) and is removed from the process.
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  #4607  
Old January 7th, 2015, 12:47 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ixe View Post
I'm surprised to see the kobolds didn't make it. I hope that doesn't kill the design entirely because they were fun to play.

I'm glad to see the Elgos Knights move through the Unified Fanscape Review, but that does make me wonder on what that means moving forward. They passed through initial SoV voting by the narrowest of margins largely based around the dispute over using Soul Markers on this card given that it is already on Akumaken's. It seems that enough of fanscape is okay with it to go through, but does that have any bearing on how the judges will now vote? Is that issue now put aside for moving forward, or will judges who disagreed be able to shoot it down solely on that basis? As far as general SoV policy, it does seem a bit strange for a contentious unit to make it's way through earlier stages to then get killed only for a reason that the majority ruled was acceptable.
My stance is that if I didn't like a unit when it went through ISR then I will be sure to test it myself. If it has made it that far it deserves a try from me (maybe playing will change my mind).

Although if I perceived an issue as being big enough that no amount of play would change my mind, I might vote Nay immediately after it passes ISR.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.

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Last edited by capsocrates; January 7th, 2015 at 12:51 PM. Reason: In case it is not clear, neither of your units had such issues, IMO.
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  #4608  
Old January 9th, 2015, 11:38 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Viceron the Dark Knight by Ixe

Not every Knight is a Valiant Jandarian. Viceron doesn't care about chivalry or synergies, he just wants to kill.

Balance


It's difficult to get a handle on Viceron with just theoryscaping. A seemingly obvious comparison is the SoV inductee Brimstone, but that comparison really isn't all that helpful. Their points are the same and their stats are similar, but Brimstone's slow-building special combined with Flying and bonding with Greenscales paints a very different picture than Viceron's solo, self-wounding act. Outside of Bloodstorm Ritual Special Attack Viceron's stats are impressive, especially when backed with Sanguine Sword, but he's not at the same power level as Cyprien, an equally-costed life drainer. Bloodstorm takes up a sizable chunk of the Dark Knight's points, obviously, an attack of which there is little precedent.

I'm just going to punt and leave this one up to the Playability section.

Theme


Utgar has dabbled in evil Knights before, though not magically-enhanced ones. Viceron is clearly not a nice guy, and potent to boot, so I can understand why Utgar would take interest. While I'm glad the Dark Knight isn't from Earth, I'm not entirely thrilled with Toril as the choice as the design does not harken to any D&D trope I've seen. But then D&D is very broad, in particular in the magic weapons department, so it's certainly within reason. Since we haven't seen any Humans from Feylund, Valhalla, Grut, or Icaria, I suppose Toril (or Eberron) is the next best option.

Merciless is a good personality, Knight works, and the stats are reasonable (5 Defense is high for a human, but not unprecedented). I do have a minor gripe with the name. I keep thinking of him as "Viceron the Blood Knight." There's nothing wrong with "Dark Knight," per se, but he just feels like a "Blood Knight" to me. Not enough of an issue to affect my voting regardless.

Creativity

The key creative piece here is the combination of a powerful self-wounding attack with a Life Drain-like ability. These powers both clash (they cannot be used together) and synergize (one hurts, one heals). While the obvious strategy would be to alternate normal and special attacks, the flow of battle isn't so predictable as to make that easy to do.

Playability

Viceron is suicidal. While it may seem that with some careful play he can, on his own, control a battlefield (or at least part of one), that doen't really work in practice. First, he doesn't like being near friendly figures, or rather, they don't like being near him, which puts him out by himself. For a Move 5 melee figure that's a lonely way to live; a death sentence, really, unless it's cleanup. While it may seem like Bloodstorm Ritual Special Attack is enough to scare away crowds, smart players will realize that swarming him is the best way to bring him down. Then the Dark Knight has to damage himself to deal with them. This normally plays out as a suicidal rush into enemy lines, some self-cutting, then death.

As noted it can play out differently in cleanup, but 150 points is a bit steep for the cleanup role. Additionally, a fair chunk of his price tag is tied up in Bloodstorm, which, given the cost of using it, is best restricted to efficient uses that hit clumped figures, not the scattered remnants in endgame.

While it may seem like repeated Bloodstorm Rituals could be devastating to an opponent, I quickly saw the folly of that thinking in my testplays. The problem (from Viceron's perspective) is his low Life. A Defense of 5 is solid, but even if Bloodstorm takes out everything around him there are almost certainly more figures in striking range, and if even one of them sneaks in a hit Viceron is on the verge of death. For a cheaper figure that wouldn't be as much of an issue, but 150pts is an investment that's hard to surrender, especially after only killing a squad or two of enemy figures. Of course he can then switch to his Sanguine Sword to heal up, but one attack&heal per turn usually isn't enough to overcome the counterattack. In practice, getting off more than two Bloodstorm Rituals in a game is a rare occurence.

That's not to say he can't kill his points worth, and more, but it's far from a guarantee. Those few turns Viceron is on the front lines are intense and full of tough decision points for both sides. He benefits a lot from having a delivery mechanism like Brunak as it cuts down the number of order markers needed to get him into the fray, though he needs to be able to distance himself from his mount before he starts Ritualizing. Heat of Battle is good for him for the same reasons.

Summary

I expected Viceron to be overly devastating, even at 150pts, due to the potency of Bloodstorm Ritual Special Attack combined with a reliable healing mechanism. But in practice he's just as likely to bleed out quickly without making a big dent. Either way, Viceron the Dark Knight provides for some intense, albeit brief, turns in the heart of a game.

I vote to induct Viceron the Dark Knight into the SoV.

Last edited by Scytale; February 25th, 2015 at 06:09 PM.
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