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  #3553  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 09:23 AM
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Lyrgard Lyrgard is offline
 
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

About Kheris, the final decision was relayed to the french forum. I'm going to translate your full answer there, superfrog, so that they can read your entire post. Simval already posted there a summary of your point.

I'm here voicing the reaction of the french community, not my own :

Mainly, the people there don't really like that Kheris is droped out for being swingy, for some reasons :
  • There are already really swingy units in this game, runa coming right in mind. But also Atlaga, Dan, Braxas, all capable of killing 300+ worth of units if the dice are hot for them.
  • Kheris never was able to kill so much in our tests, so the french forum believe superfrog had a very high stroke of luck that only could happens very very few time. Venoc Viper could also kill a lot of point with two or more good frenzy rolls.
  • Being swingy and 120 point (quite a lot compared to Isamu only 10 points for instance), Kheris shouldn't be often seen in tournament, where his swingyness (does this word exists ?) could be a problem. So he would mainly be seen during fun games, and all people that played him said he was a lot of fun. So why not allow him to be release under the seal of SoV so more people can share that fun, without ruining competitve gaming ?
  • Lastly, some (not all at all) people said that Kheris is too complex compared to others figures already released, that the SoV was uneasy with him and didn't want to release him, but couldn't voice this straight out and found other means to refuse him.
I'm just telling this as to help communication between the two forums and not let suspicion arise between us all scapers !
The last point is probably lead by the deception to not see Kheris approved. Us French people are supposed to be a little grumpy, right ?

Whatever, the french community intends to keep on using Kheris, as we had a blast designing him and testing him.

I would personnaly like to thanks all people that took time to test him.

I'll be very soon back with ours second attemp at SoV, Asterios !
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  #3554  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 10:22 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyrgard View Post
Lastly, some (not all at all) people said that Kheris is too complex compared to others figures already released, that the SoV was uneasy with him and didn't want to release him, but couldn't voice this straight out and found other means to refuse him.
While most of your points were in regards to superfrog's dislike of Kheris's swingy nature, this point was broader. So allow me to address it.

To make it clear, there was no conspiracy within the SoV or greater Fanscape to fail Kheris. The complexity level was a concern, but he passed not only submission review but United Fanscape review as well. Thus he deserves and was given thorough and fair reviews by our Judges. His complexity was still a point of concern and it heavily influenced both my and capsocrates's decisions, leading to his Nay and my borderline Yea. It was certainly a concern, but rest assured there was no ploy to fail him because of that or anything else. The three of us individually voted how we felt we needed to.

I appreciate the update of what's happening on the French forums. Please make it clear we intended no slight on your fine group with how Kheris turned out. We all hope to see more of your work in the future!
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  #3555  
Old December 2nd, 2013, 01:13 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyrgard View Post
  • There are already really swingy units in this game, runa coming right in mind. But also Atlaga, Dan, Braxas, all capable of killing 300+ worth of units if the dice are hot for them.
  • Kheris never was able to kill so much in our tests, so the french forum believe superfrog had a very high stroke of luck that only could happens very very few time. Venoc Viper could also kill a lot of point with two or more good frenzy rolls.
  • Being swingy and 120 point (quite a lot compared to Isamu only 10 points for instance), Kheris shouldn't be often seen in tournament, where his swingyness (does this word exists ?) could be a problem. So he would mainly be seen during fun games, and all people that played him said he was a lot of fun. So why not allow him to be release under the seal of SoV so more people can share that fun, without ruining competitve gaming ?
I will say that when I started testing Kheris, I was not bothered by his complexity. Seeing that that had been a main concern of capsocrates and Scytale, I thought I might not find any more issues with him. I don't dislike swingy figures. They're fun to play. But Kheris had two dice dependent powers that were related, and "stacked" so to speak. That amplified his variance. One good Deflection/Nhah Scirh Shield combo could change the game by 50+ points. That was a bit too much for me. I almost voted yes, but it was just a little outside my comfort zone.

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  #3556  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 03:16 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Thanks for both of your answers. I translated them to the French Forum.

Now, back to the job :

I'm proud to nominate the second participation of the french forum to SoV.

I present you Asterios, the minotaur of the Maze :



Basic Side :
Spoiler Alert!

Text version :
Spoiler Alert!


Bio
Dwelling in the Maze was the Minotaur. This mystical being from Feylund relentlessly preyed upon the poor men let wandering alive in the Maze. Many time have armies of valiant troops tried to bring the beast down, only to never return, as the Minotaur is not an opponent for the puny weapons of mere mortals. Their blows never seemed to pierce the thick hide of the Minotaur whereas he furiously charged and wreack havoc in their ranks, unconcerned by their blades or pikes. It is said, however, that some day a true hero would appear, blessed by the gods. Faced with this Hero, the Minotaur will finally bleed, and after a long battle will be left dead on the ground. The Hero will emerged victorious from the Maze, the first man to ever do it, carrying at his wrists the ornaments of the beast horns. Or so said the legends.
Theseus was believed to be the Hero of the legend. He claimed to have killed the Minotaur, and leaved the Maze alive. And true be told, the Minotaur was no more in the Maze. But never did Theseus bring back the ornaments of the horns of the Minotaur...
Some whisper that the Minotaur is not dead. That he was taken by a potent God to help him in his war. That the Hero born to kill the Beast has still not showed up...


The mini is Reapers Minis, Legendary Encounters, Minotaur of the Maze.
Spoiler Alert!


On the french forum, we wanted to create something new, that didn't yet exists in Heroscape. Even now after all this years, it appeared to us that something was lacking. All Heroscape players know that Heroscape is often ironically named Squadscape, the squads being very powerfull. They are Hero designed to counter squad, like Major Q9 or Zelrig. All of them are ranged heroes. We wanted to make the impossible ! A hero able to go toe-to-toe with squads in the heat of the battle.

What we wanted/needed was :
  • No range, by design
  • Not a monstrous beast in the 200+ point cost. Something around 100 points
  • A multi attack power, because single attack hero cannot compete with squads
  • A defensive power, to be able to stand some time when assaulted with 4 attacks of 4 each turn !
  • A disengage power, to prevent Asterios to be tied down and shooted from range
  • Something cool to play !
We tinkered a lot with many different ideas, until we found the current form of Asterios.
Let me breakdown this Minotaur with the categories used to judge figure here in SoV

Balance
With its defense of 6 against small or medium squads figure and 6 life, Asterios may seem unstopable. But he is costed 120 point. It take quite a lot of turn to kill 120 points of squads with "only" three attacks of three. If the squad has poor defense, they cost few points, Asterios has to mow down a lot to earn his point, and if the defense is higher, attacks of 3 has more difficulties to kill figures.
We made a lot of simulation to see how much of a squad Asterios can chew down before droping dead.

The result breakdown :
Spoiler Alert!


The results are clears : apart from the most powerfull squads (KoW, HSB), pure squads can only compete with Asterios with great sacrifices ! Some others squads have an edge, that is squads with special powers (Ashigaru Yari, zombies, microcorp troopers), or squads that bond with a hero.
On the other hand, apart from cheerleader type of heroes, Asterios is clearly dominated by others heroes.

All in one, and it was confirmed by the many playtests we made, Asterios striked us as well balanced.

Playability
At a price of 120, and being an "anti-squad" component without any synergy, Asterios can be incorporated to many builds. He doesn't have synergies, but his high defense against squads and high life make it so that you can reliably put order marker on him, even in the thick of the battle.

His ability to leave engagement from small or medium squads figure allow him to go rampaging how he want among them. No screen of rats can tie him down and prevent him to go hurt some juicy squad behind. But take care of the opponent's heroes, they can stop him !
His move of 6 allow him to not stay under ranged fire for long.

In draft, he can also be a good counter-draft if your opponent want to go a full squad army.

He is a well-arround hero : 3 attacks of 3, or a normal attack of 5 with height, a good move of 6 on single base (or 5 movements, but disengage from squads), a very good 6 life, and a usually very good defense. He just have one weakness : his defense drop a lot against heroes and special attack !

Creativity
We believe we made something new with this anti-squad melee hero.
We made yet another version of the Ninjutu Barrage of Kumiko. The text is nearly identical, but the feeling is very different !
  • Kumiko has a short move with phantom walk. She use it once in melee, not to charge in. With phantom walk, she can do some move no other figures can do.
  • Augamo has a medium move with only two attacks (but stronger) with ramming to clear the way. With his normal attack and defense of 6, Augamo can take on heroes.
  • Asterios has a good move and disengage. He use it to charge and wreck havoc in the rank of the opponent squad. Opponent heroes can prevent him to disengage and hurt him.
We liked how small changes made a create change in the "feeling" of the power. Kumiko, Asterios and Augamo are not just three version of the same power only on different point cost scale (like are the two Drake Alexander). There are all three truly unique figures with differents uses on the battlefield.

The second power, Legendary Creature 3, is made to be easilly re-used on other figures. It is simple defensive power. We restricted it to only small and medium squad figures because large squads doesn't need to be countered. Thematically, it can also make sense that figures as large as the minotaur cannot be ignored by him as he can with puny smaller squads.

Theme
Before starting on theme, juste a little video of
Here you are, a Minotaur furiously charging in the battle, striking left and right. He mow down the ranks of the opponent's army, ignoring them as he would of ant while he move forward. Only true Heroes, a wall of spear (SA of the Ashigaru Yari, the Braced Spears of the Cathar or a charge of the Templar cavalery (being large)), the infectuous bites of some monsters (the SA of the zombies, the Lethal Sting of the Rechet, ...), or the most heavy of modern weaponry (Microcorp troopers) can present a threat to the Minotaur. If you have neither in your army, drop on your knee and pray !
He have no synergies, because the curse he bear and living in the Maze made him into a solitary being.
We chose Einar for him, for the historic tie he has with the greeks
He is a Marauder, like Fen Hydra, Racheim and the Vulcanmech. This class reflects him marauding around without rest in the Maze, looking for an exit and preying upon poor beings left in it to die.
His personality is Dauntless (like the granite guardians and the Greater ice elemental) because he never fear to charge in melee.

Accessibility
The mini is Reapers Minis, Legendary Encounters, Minotaur of the Maze. Reapers minis figure are still in production, and we believe they are always considered ok in SoV
At the begining of this project, we emailed Reaper Mini, asking for how the availability would change, they replied they can make stock if there is demand.
I think we could ask Auggies if he can buy some from reaper mini to sell them back to scapers (with the possibility to also sell the card, I believe).

Last edited by Lyrgard; December 26th, 2014 at 01:17 PM.
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  #3557  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 08:05 AM
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Simval Simval is offline
 
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

First, I'd like to thank you, all the judges, for your positive answers to our concerns.

Also, thanks Lyrgard for that AWESOME presentation, and go Asterios !
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  #3558  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 08:09 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

to review Asterios.

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  #3559  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 08:32 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

It is possible that Asterios might prove to be TOO strong, but that is my only reservation in my first read-through. We will just have to find out. to review Asterios.

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  #3560  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 08:41 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

That was my initial thought as well Caps. 120, at a glance, seems like it could be a little low, but thematically, for me, this guy looks fantastic and I want to see him put through the paces.

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  #3561  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 08:53 AM
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Lyrgard Lyrgard is offline
 
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I agree with you capsocrate that just reading the card, Asterios may seem very strong, to the borderline of too strong.

On the other hand, his attack power is not that great : 3 attacks of 3, not upgraded by heigth, and he have to walk to contact to make them (height slow him down, and he does not profit from the road). Q9 has the same power output, but safely from 6 range, behind a screen of rat, with a defense of always 7.
Most squads hit harder than him, with more flexibility.
With his defense of 3 against heroes, large squads and special attacks, he rolls only 3 defense dice more often you would think.
Sure, against only aubrien archers on a totally flat map, he slaughter them, but it is the ideal situation for him, like if DW 8000 was against only venoc vipers.

Whatever, I'm really looking forward to heard how you managed to use him or counter him when you'll playtest him ! I had very interresting playtest with him, where my opponent carrefully made both heroes and squad advance, with squads in front to lure Asterios into charging and Hero behind to jump on him if he charge. It was difficult but really fun decisions to take !
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  #3562  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 10:41 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Really like the overall design. Anti-squad melee hero? Sign me up!

to review Asterios
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  #3563  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 11:50 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Too bad my vote doesn't count any more, because I would give Asterios a to review. That is the most well thought out and presented nomination that the SoV has seen. Well done Lyrgard and the French forum!
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  #3564  
Old December 3rd, 2013, 12:18 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Bogue View Post
Too bad my vote doesn't count any more, because I would give Asterios a to review. That is the most well thought out and presented nomination that the SoV has seen. Well done Lyrgard and the French forum!

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