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  #3061  
Old March 28th, 2013, 08:03 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
On the subject of the unified review, I'd say that while that blurb that Super Bogue gave is acceptable, it would be nice for the creator of the unit to get a PM with a bit more in it. Like each person who voted no either writes something like D_S did or says that they agree with another of those.
I've also, in days gone by, been pretty firm that this thread is not for workshopping. I just wanted to clear up the confusion on that one point.

GG, you are active in a couple of other threads that are much more suited to workshopping & improvement. I think, normally, when a unit gets a for review, the reasons are apparent to someone who has been around long enough. And if someone hasn't been around long enough, asking politely should be enough to get a little more information, but it's very important someone in such a position does not take feedback as a checklist, and feel once those items are addressed the unit will surely make it to the next stage. That's not how it works.

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  #3062  
Old March 28th, 2013, 08:30 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
On the subject of the unified review, I'd say that while that blurb that Super Bogue gave is acceptable, it would be nice for the creator of the unit to get a PM with a bit more in it. Like each person who voted no either writes something like D_S did or says that they agree with another of those.
I've also, in days gone by, been pretty firm that this thread is not for workshopping. I just wanted to clear up the confusion on that one point.

GG, you are active in a couple of other threads that are much more suited to workshopping & improvement. I think, normally, when a unit gets a for review, the reasons are apparent to someone who has been around long enough. And if someone hasn't been around long enough, asking politely should be enough to get a little more information, but it's very important someone in such a position does not take feedback as a checklist, and feel once those items are addressed the unit will surely make it to the next stage. That's not how it works.
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that what you came in and said as a reply to Boromir was a lot more clear than just dropping "complexity creep". Expecially if the SoV judges passed it and then the Inner Sanctum rejected it, there clearly are only some minor issues holding it back.

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  #3063  
Old March 29th, 2013, 12:58 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that what you came in and said as a reply to Boromir was a lot more clear than just dropping "complexity creep". Expecially if the SoV judges passed it and then the Inner Sanctum rejected it, there clearly are only some minor issues holding it back.
I listed all the responses associated with a negative vote in the Inner Sanctum. At the end of the day, it is not up to the Inner Sanctum to decide what a SoV submission should look like. The designer has control of what should and should not be change. We give our feedback on whether or not the design is balanced and fits within the existing canon, but the design has control of what his design will look like.
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  #3064  
Old March 29th, 2013, 08:12 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Yep, and just because a unit doesn't make it past review (or induction for that matter) doesn't mean it needs to change. I understand wanting said unit to be a part of FanScape, but the designer also needs to be happy with it. If your vision sees it one way and Unified Scape sees it another, don't change it if you're not in agreement. Just because a unit isn't part of FanScape doesn't mean the community at large can't use it. All it really means is that it can't be used in an 'official' tourney.

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  #3065  
Old March 29th, 2013, 01:02 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Brimstone by Scytale

Balance: As always when looking at a unitís balance, I compare it to an official existing unit. Brimstone doesnít fit the mold of the Classic Scape dragons, but I think he is best compared against his fellow D&D dragons particularly Othkurik (besides every other judge has compared him to Mimring and I want to do something different). So letís start there.
Othkurikís Tricky personality does offer some synergies while Brimstoneís Menacing is purely thematic (ie no synergies). Statwise they are the same except Brimstone has one more defense. They both fly. Othkurikís Lurking Ambush would be a bigger factor if it werenít limit by terrain, but as it stands it is a very minor thing to consider. The real point of contention comes down to the comparison of their special attacks. Both are short range. What Brimstone loses in consistent attack power, he makes up for in area of effect. He can hit a maximum of 18 figures, whereas Othkurik can only hit 3 figures. However, your opponent would dumber than a box of rocks to give you an opportunity to hit ten or more of his figures with Heat Blast. Units are often priced on their maximum potential rather than the mean potential (see Einar Imperium and Anbuian Wolves). With that consider, Heat Blast is a better special attack than Acid Spray. Thus the scales are weighed with one more defense and a better special attack for Brimstone against a personality with synergy and a terrain contingent attack and move bonus for Othkurik. Does that swing 10 points in favor of Brimstone? I would agree. Pass

Playability: The powers are clear and understandable. The stats are appropriate for the figure. The miniature would fit on a D3 large base or you could just trim a bit off of its D&D base. It is also visually distinct from the rest of the Heroscape cannon.
As far as how he performs on the battlefield, Brimstone is feast or famine. Personally, I got a lot more famine with him than feast. Though there is a potential to hit 18 figures with Heat Blast, the most I ever hit was 8 (and I whiffed on the attack roll). Since Heat Blast does not affect Lava Resistant figures, I tried mixing him with Iron Golems in a heroes only setting. But without a mass of common figures it is difficult to get any value out of Brimstone since so much of his effectiveness is wrapped up in Heat Blast. Then I tried him out with the Firestorm using the Fire Elementals as a screen and initial attacking force to setup a good Heat Blast. But this army fell apart due to Order Marker management. You cannot really charge up Heat Blast without leaving the Fire Elementals vulnerable. They are both too sharky. His best army is with the Greenscale Warriors. He hangs back and boosts them while charging Heat Blast. Then he hops over the warriors and blasts the enemy behind their front line. In theory itís great, but the execution can easily fall apart. Brimstone needs to face off against a melee army that cannot flank his warriors otherwise he will get shot down before he can blast the opponentís army. It can be difficult to win with Brimstone, but the memory of wiping out half your opponentís army with Heat Blast is awesome. Pass

Creativity: The new thing that Brimstone brings to the table is his special attack: Heat Blast. It is new on a couple of fronts: the requirements to reach maximum effectiveness and area of effect. The closest examples of similar official powers with a requirement to reach maximum effectiveness would be Fire Strike and Rain of Flame. Those both require certain army builds and figure placement for effectiveness. Heat Blast requires a certain play style, so the comparison falls apart quickly. As to the second point, there is not an official power that moves area of effect beyond figures immediately adjacent to either the unit or target. In that way, Heat Blast is more similar to an aura than a special attack. Heat Blast paves the way for a variety of new powers to be explored. Though the mechanics themselves (markers and area of effect beyond adjacency) are not new they have not been combined or used in such a manner before.
It is also worth noting that Brimstone would be the dragon for Valkrill. Thatís something new, but Heat Blast is really where the creativity of this design shines. Pass

Theme: Theme should be looked at new two aspects: cohesion and fit. By cohesion I mean does the entire design of the unit fit well together. Are the stats appropriate for the size and scale of the figure? Does the personality mesh with the class, species, and allegiance? Do the powers interact well together? Are the powers appropriate for the figure? For example a design with a range 8 for a figure with a sling would be a failure in cohesion to me. A sling is a mid-range weapon at best, so creating a design for such a figure with a range greater than 5 would not work. As far as fit is concern here I am looking at this design in view of the rest of Heroscape. Does this design fit amongst other units for this general? Does this design fit amongst other designs for this species? Does this design fit amongst other designs for this personality?
I write all that for this: Brimstone is an example of a cohesive design that fits well amongst the rest of Heroscape. Each aspect of the design matches up to the figure. The stats, personality, class, allegiance, and powers all fit perfectly to this figure. Typically this is a point where I nitpick about things that I might have changed such as the Hoplitronís class or Daishiís allegiance. But I cannot do that here because there is not an opportunity! Pass

Overall, Brimstone is a high variance design that fits as Valkrillís dragon. He may not be the most competitive unit but everything else about him is great. I vote YES to inducting Brimstone into the Soldiers of Valhalla.
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  #3066  
Old March 29th, 2013, 01:10 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Yes, Valkrill gets his dragon after C3V approval. 3 months into the year (almost 4) and we have 2 new SOV Units.

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  #3067  
Old March 30th, 2013, 05:30 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Wow. I leave for a competition and come back to find a new judge and a newly passed unit! Congrats Vegie on becoming a judge, and congrats Scytale on your Dragon's success.

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  #3068  
Old April 3rd, 2013, 11:25 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Shaitahn by Son of Arathorn

Theme- I like the theme behind Shaitahn. Rejected by Death is a thematic power for an undying skeleton. Undead March makes sense for one who is supposed to be the leader of an undead horde. The sculpt matches this theme well, especially since it doesn’t cater to the Death Knights that form his most obvious build. However, I found myself wishing that Undead March worked with all Undead commons, and that Shaitahn was a Lord. I liked what was there though, so it’s unfair to judge it based on what is not. PASS.

Creativity- Rejected by Death is an official power, but reusing it on a bonding hero makes it very different. Even Soul Weapons with three attack dice instead of two feels a lot different than the Death Knights' blades. But by far, the most creative part of this card is the tension that Rejected by Death and Undead March create. Do you rush Shaitahn into battle to play him over and over again, or do you leave him behind and have speedy Death Knights? I really like designs that force you to make decisions like that. PASS.

Balance- At a first glance, Shaitahn’s defense, life, and cost mirror that of two squads of Death Knights, which is cool considering that Sir Gilbert, Shaitahn’s closest parallel, does the same thing with one and a half squads of Weston. I found that very appropriate, and it creates choices for Death Knights builds; do you go for Shaitahn and sacrifice squads of Death Knights to get him? or do you load up on Skull Demons and forfeit your board control? It seems perfect.

However, as I delved deeper into testing Shaitahn, I began to feel like Rejected by Death was not properly factored into his cost. The nomination post for him even says “Rejected By Death is a factor in cost, but not so much as the other powers and stats”. Let's say Thanos was made without Rejected by Death. He's probably worth around 200 points, and that feels a little on the high side. That means that one power nearly doubled his point cost! And putting RbD on a bonding hero makes it so much more valuable. You can recklessly disengage with him, because even if he dies you don’t lose order markers. But more importantly, you have twice the amount of chances for him to come back! Shaitahn was intended to work outside of Death Knight builds, and I’ll give him that. But a Thrall build is just as potent with Rejected by Death, if not more. Each Thrall takes a separate turn, so you can get up to three chances to succeed your Rejected by Death roll. Besides the annoying hassle it creates to pick up the D20 up to three times every single turn, I found that if Shaitahn died early, you could almost count on him coming back from the grave at least once. And even without Undead March, that level of power is too much. FAIL.

Playability- When I first looked at the card of Shaitahn, something felt wrong about Undead March, but I just couldn’t put my finger on it. But when I started testing him, I realized what the problem was: Undead March lets you move a Death Knight twice in one Order Marker. I found myself playing the Death Knights as a 9 move squad that was able slow roll reinforcements behind them. Whenever I didn’t need the move boost to get my two attacks, I’d work Shaitahn forward into a spot where he had better sight lines or a figure to attack. This just felt wrong to me. The Death Knights are not supposed to be a speedy squad with board control. This is their weakness; as FanScape we cannot just patch holes over the flawed parts of squads. It removes the nature of what Heroscape is.

Now, after thinking about Shaitahn for a while, I realized that Sir Gilbert did the same thing for the Knights of Weston. And so I thought about it for a bit more. But I realized that Shaitahn is better for the Death Knights than Sir Gilbert was for the Knights. Shaitahn moves two squads of Death Knights, while Sir Gilbert only moves one squad of Knights. Also, Shaitahn guarantees you four spaces of movement, while Sir Gilbert has the potential for four and more, but is often lower than that and also has a chance of failure. The chance of failure is something that Shaitahn is missing. The variance that Sir Gilbert brings it what kept him from being too much. You never knew exactly how far your Knights would be dispatched that turn, but with Shaitahn, you know exactly how far your Death Knights will be marching. Now, Shaitahn does require you to forfeit your attack with him. But think of how many times you have just sat Sir Gilbert on a perch in the early game, and just slowly rolled out your Knights! Unfortunately, I think that Undead March needs some variance or else Shaitahn will make Death Knight builds have no variance. FAIL.

Summary- On one hand, I think that Shaitahn is a thematic design full of tactical tension. On the other, I found Undead March to be a bit too low variance, and Rejected by Death too strong of a power to have on a bonding hero of this cost. I vote NO to induct Shaitahn into the Soldiers of Valhalla.

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  #3069  
Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:02 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Sundol and Jarek Guy have passed the unified fanscape evaluation and will continue in the test phase.
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  #3070  
Old April 13th, 2013, 04:40 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I just had a nice visit from qt.bangerange. We played some scape, painted figures, and discussed Tokanto Daishi! After talking about reasons for pulling the figure and the possibility of resubmitting it, good ol' bangerange consented to let his Tokanto Daishi be resubmitted with his permission.

Judges please feel free to verify everything with him, but I promise I have received permission to resubmit him for the SoV's use.

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  #3071  
Old April 13th, 2013, 04:51 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Assuming that qt has consented to this then I would whole heartedly vote Tokanto Daishi for review.
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  #3072  
Old April 13th, 2013, 05:32 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion


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