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  #2509  
Old October 4th, 2012, 07:58 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
You said before that you believed the judges when they said that Gor'Vath and the Green Wyrmling were broken. Do you no longer believe that?

I appreciate the criticism, but the numbers just don't back you up.
First, I was like "the judges are very good, very strict, perfect". And in my mind if you said that an unit were broken it was.
But now, it's been a year, some units were realease and no-one belongs to the category "B+ or higher" so I say to myself "Where are the competitive units? Heroscape need them as it needs also non-competitive ones." And I thought that maybe you are too strict for accepting "competitive but not broken" units, but as you said, the numbers don't back me.
So maybe the best thing to do is to wait and see, but I think it's something you have too keep in mind.

InfectedBloth:
First I never said ZI sucks... I said they're not very competitive.
Secondly: I didn't said Megasilver didn't make a good accomplishement by being 6th, I just pointed out that Caps said me something wrong (he told me: "Megasilver won General War with Vipers" which is not true.) Well done for your really good place at GenCon Megasilver and continue to play Vipers if you like it!
Third: I read KillerCactus day 1 report, even him recognize he got extremly lucky, he won a game on the last turn with a nine skull Gueqlix Gun killing Zelrig, he barely escaped to 2 machups vs Q9 and he had awesome frenzies on another game (well this last one is kind of normal if you play Vipers). This don't diminish the great performance done by KC.
One day on a tournament someone bring DW7000 and got 4-1, finished second, does this make DW7000 a competitive unit?

Now talking seriously about the ZI:
The difference between: ZI vs Varnakaan and PKs vs 4th is that 4th is a top tier army whereas the Varnakaan army is not.
Beating top tier army because you've a good machup is cool, beating the Varnakaan... any relatively good hodgepodge can done this.

I bought the ZI and I play with them often, they're great units, but they're not competitive as for example DCoT, PKs, HSB etc... are.


Last edited by Foudzing; October 4th, 2012 at 08:21 PM.
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  #2510  
Old October 4th, 2012, 08:56 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
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Originally Posted by MegaSilver View Post
What the heck? No one's trying to fool you.

I course I didn't win General Wars with Ullar. That's near impossible.
I agree with you... Maybe it's near impossible because WoA and Vipers are not competitive squads?
And btw I knew you played Vipers... I was talking about Caps's performance...
Okay then, some misunderstanding took place. I also see that caps did not fully state that I won Ullar with Vipers, instead he said that I won General Wars. Now I see why you said what you said. My bad for accusing you of something you did not say.

Still, I must say, Vipers are definitely competitive. Yes, they have some bad matchups (cutters, zombies, and Q9, being the most) but they can put the beat down on several figures. (Ask Jexik what happened to his Blast/Glad build at GenCon 2011 against me. )

If you'd like, we can play a game via HeroSkype and I can really show you how strong the Vipers can be.

Now, instead of complaining about how strong or weak a figure is (Ashara and Beakfaces namely) play a game with them! Your mind will be changed after a couple of games.
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  #2511  
Old October 5th, 2012, 02:10 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Tentacles of the Kraken by qt.bangerang

There are many ways to play Heroscape. Perhaps the oldest way is scenarios -- the original Rise of the Valkyrie set had a number of scenarios to play through. The Tentacles of the Kraken is not a standard unit and is unsuited for the normal double-blind tournament scene. But that doesn't mean it is not worthwhile; units made to shine in certain scenarios or on certain maps can be interesting and fun.

Balance

TotK is a unit of extremes. Most obviously, they are extemely map-dependent. But even assuming a decent map they are extreme. On the one hand, if they are never Released they are a complete waste of points. On the other hand, if they Release every round they are incredibly valuable. Four figures with 4/4 stats is fantastic, but they are often on a lower level than their opponent. They can teleport between water spaces, but cannot move outside of water. They can move enemy figures around with ease, but the enemy figures must be close enough to grab.

Is 100 points the right value? Heck if I know; there are just too many factors to consider, at least through pure theoryscaping. 100 points does at least feel like the right ballpark.

Theme

Theme, theme, theme. This unit is loaded with it, from Release the Kraken to dragging figures around to the water-only limitation. It does lead to a card loaded with text, which is unfortunate, but the unit really needs all of its powers to make it work right. Also, the powers are necessarily wordy despite being fairly simple in concept. The good thing is that the theme translates well into how it plays, enough so that it is easy to understand how the unit plays despite the wordiness.

Creativity

qt took a thematic concept and made it fit into the world of Heroscape. Making a unit that cannot leave water spaces is pretty radical, but the combination of abilities makes it fun and interesting. Coming up with an interesting theme for a unit can be challenging, but often times it's even more challenging to adapt a given theme effectively into Heroscape.

I'm not a fan of using the same scuplt as multiple figures in the same squad. This is a bit of an exception, though, as the Tentacles are all similar appendages of the same (unseen) creature. Ideally they would all have different poses, but I'm willing to give a little. I did try to re-pose some of mine using hot water treatment with little success; it seems those Dungeon Crawler minis are unusually resilient.

Accessibility

Dungeon Crawler miniatures are still in print. Auggies has a lot of them in stock.

Playability

The Tentacles of the Kraken are not useful on some maps. A lot of maps, actually. So my testing was focused on maps and scenarios where they would be useful. And yes, there are plenty of them available; many of the Swarm of the Marro-based ones for example.

Having a kraken suddenly appear on a Heroscape battlefield, even if it's only a few tentacles, is an exciting moment. Especially for an adventuring party suddenly facing a creature rising up out of the underground lake. The fear it instills is justified; the combination of four figures, Underwater Pull, and 4/4 stats makes the Tentacles quite potent. Even if the dice are against them and they don't get the expected number of kills, yanking figures out of position and (sometimes) down into water can severely disrupt the opposing player's strategy.

Fighting them off is potentially futile. It takes effort to fight off the 4-defense TotK, which can become meaningless when the tentacles all come back the start of the next round. They're too powerful to ignore, but killing them sometimes ends up being a waste.

Release the Kraken is an exceedingly random power, much moreso than similar powers like The Drop, as those powers are usually one-shot and done. It's more like Thanos's Rejected By Death power; it's only a matter of time until the unit comes back. Of course Release the Kraken also has the potential for the TotK to never even appear, unlike Thanos who starts on the battlefield. Roll bad and they're a waste of points, roll well and they're a powerful menance that won't stay dead.

The testing that eventually settled my vote was playing the first room of the recently-released Shadow Cavern Campaign. It's a bit of an ideal map for them, with a lake in the middle of the dungeon room within reach of the heroes' starting zone. Time and again I saw adventuring parties annihilated in that room due in large part to the Tentacles. Even if they only Release once, yanking the heroes out of position into the water horribly disrupted their teamwork. If they Released multiple times the defeat was crushing. I don't think any other use of 100pts would be nearly as potent.

Summary

Playing the Tentacles of the Kraken on a tournament-size map with a lot of water and ~500pt armies, they felt more or less right, though extremely dependent on how often they Released and whether or not they won initiative on the rounds they did. Unfortunately, in the scenarios the Tentacles are the most exciting to play, dungeon crawls (with enough water), the Tentacles are exceedingly devastating. So much so that adventuring parties have little chance.

The Tentacles are very cool design and really neat to play, and would be really cool in special scenarios with special rules. While I don't feel it's right to introduce the TotK into official Fanscape, I do recommend people head over to Auggies and get themselves a set, if that makes any sense.

I vote to induct the Tentacles of the Kraken into the SoV.
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  #2512  
Old October 6th, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by infectedsloth View Post
I just took ZI to a a 3-2 record less then a month ago. If my full life Warden doesn't lose to Raelin who had 4 wounds, I would have been 4-1. Not every tournament allows custom figures, if they did you would see more positive results, but there is positive results already.
I'd think it's also important to note that the ZI build that he played was NOT the best ZI build imaginable. He had no Raelin, no Rats, and no DW9K. If I remember correctly, all he had was DW8K, ZI x4, Warden, Martial, and Isamu.

Also, the other army that he lost to was a very DCoT competitive build (Deathchasers x5, Raelin, Ogre Pulverizer, Nerak, MBS). He didn't really have much of a chance, with less attack dice, less defense dice, and less attacks per turn. That matchup is tough for a lot of armies. The Raelin army he should have won against? It had 3x Redcoats, 3x Romans and Marcus. That's another strong army. I think I remember him also beating Stingers x4, Raelin, Cyprien, Sonya, and Eldgrim. I don't know what his other wins were, but they were probably pretty good ones too. If those games aren't aren't proof that the ZI are a competitive squad, I'm not sure what you want.

Last edited by vegietarian18; October 6th, 2012 at 12:47 PM.
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  #2513  
Old October 6th, 2012, 12:49 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by vegietarian18 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by infectedsloth View Post
I just took ZI to a a 3-2 record less then a month ago. If my full life Warden doesn't lose to Raelin who had 4 wounds, I would have been 4-1. Not every tournament allows custom figures, if they did you would see more positive results, but there is positive results already.
I'd think it's also important to note that the ZI build that he played was NOT the best ZI build imaginable. He had no Raelin, no Rats, and no DW9K. If I remember correctly, all he had was DW8K, ZI x4, Warden, Martial, and Isamu.

Also, the other army that he lost to was a very DCoT competitive build (Deathchasers x5, Raelin, Ogre Pulverizer, Nerak, MBS). He didn't really have much of a chance, with less attack dice, less defense dice, and less attacks per turn. That matchup is tough for a lot of armies. The Raelin army he should have won against? It had 3x Redcoats, 3x Romans and Marcus. That's another strong army. I think I remember him also beating Stingers x4, Raelin, Cyprien, Sonya, and Eldgrim. I don't know what his other wins were, but they were probably pretty good ones too. If those games aren't aren't proof that the ZI are a competitive squad, I'm not sure what you want.
He should not have beaten the Cyprien Army though. He got really lucky....

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  #2514  
Old October 9th, 2012, 12:22 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I want to see KHOPHAWET accepted into the SoV program. When can the fans of this unit expect to see a verdict?

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  #2515  
Old October 9th, 2012, 12:25 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I think you can expectantly await a verdict until it comes.

The judges are not obligated to let you know when they're working on which units and when they will make their judgments.

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  #2516  
Old October 9th, 2012, 10:13 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by twigleg2 View Post
I want to see KHOPHAWET accepted into the SoV program. When can the fans of this unit expect to see a verdict?
Appreciate the enthusiasm twigleg2. Khophawet is in the queue. As for how long it will take to get him through the process and have a vote? Unfortuantely the answer is as long as it takes. All the judges playtest on their own time, which can be quite a commodity for some of us. Khophawet will get his due diligence, just can't say when right now.

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  #2517  
Old October 10th, 2012, 09:43 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
When I sat down to playtest Khophawet, I realized a problem arose with Fury of Anubis. Unleashed Fury states: "Before moving, roll the 20-sided die...". Note it says "before moving", not "before taking a turn". This indicates that the Anubian's turn has already started when the Unleashed Fury roll occurs. Khophawet's Fury of Anubis power allows him to "immediately take a turn" if an Unleashed Fury roll is 2-11. This means that Khophawet takes a turn during the Anubian Wolves' turn.

This is a problem I refer to as "turn stacking".

I vote to induct Khophawet into the SoV.
The Anubian Wolves are one of the earliest units to heroscape. I feel that the wording on their card is due to a similar, if not the same, problem that arose with Tealord's flying power. At this point, those working on creating units were still fairly new at wording heroscape unit powers to be able to work universally with future units. Just as there was confusion with Tealord, I think that this is the same kind of mistake that can be worked around.

If you won't budge on this, what if the card was reworded to allow Khopawhet to take his turn after the Anubians? It would also make him slightly less powerful because positioning the wolves within his aura would be more problematic.

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  #2518  
Old October 10th, 2012, 10:44 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by twigleg2 View Post
If you won't budge on this, what if the card was reworded to allow Khopawhet to take his turn after the Anubians? It would also make him slightly less powerful because positioning the wolves within his aura would be more problematic.
As I mentioned later in my review, I don't particularly like what Khophawet does for the Anubians. The key feature of the Anubians is their wildly swingy behavior. As both an advantage and disadvantage, it is what makes them who they are, though it also makes them somewhat less viable for tournament play (swingy behavior will win games, but will lose some too). Khophawet's bonus turn and attack bonus changed their behavior from bad-to-awesome to good-to-awesome, undermining what I see is their key feature -- their swingy nature. Khophawet does make them more competitive certainly, but does so by changing what makes them unique.

This was just my preliminary feelings, however, based a few tests. If Khophawet was changed in some way to avoid the turn-stacking issue, I would have to put him through the full suite of tests before I made a final decision. And I'm only one judge with a single vote.
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  #2519  
Old October 11th, 2012, 08:33 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by twigleg2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
When I sat down to playtest Khophawet, I realized a problem arose with Fury of Anubis. Unleashed Fury states: "Before moving, roll the 20-sided die...". Note it says "before moving", not "before taking a turn". This indicates that the Anubian's turn has already started when the Unleashed Fury roll occurs. Khophawet's Fury of Anubis power allows him to "immediately take a turn" if an Unleashed Fury roll is 2-11. This means that Khophawet takes a turn during the Anubian Wolves' turn.

This is a problem I refer to as "turn stacking".

I vote to induct Khophawet into the SoV.
...what if the card was reworded to allow Khopawhet to take his turn after the Anubians? It would also make him slightly less powerful because positioning the wolves within his aura would be more problematic.
I see Scytale's point with turn stacking, a no-no for rules clarity. I, too, would like to see K's activation occur *after* the Anubian turn; this makes him less useful and puts him in a similar position to the Shades, where they must first be adjacent to an opponent figure before activating Possession (or whatever it's called--Soul Devour?) on the following turn. This would seem a significant enough change to require K. be resubmitted with such a revised power.

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  #2520  
Old October 18th, 2012, 10:58 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I think the time has come...
we may need to pack up and move to a temporary thread where business can conduct as usual until Killo gets back. Either way, units are backing up and the SoV is not as effecient as it used to be. What we could do is move to a temporary thread matained by one of the other judges, and get a waiting list together for killo to put his seal of approval on when he gets back.

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