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  #1465  
Old January 10th, 2012, 01:19 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Making good customs that are balanced is a difficult process, and none of us are being paid to do it. There will be more customs released in the next few months, I expect.

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Originally Posted by Skeletor View Post
and link two doesn't help if someone has figure X and wants to make a tested custom out of it.
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here, but it seems like you're complaining that there aren't tested customs ready to use for any given "figure X". I'm not sure that's a realistic goal...
Sure it is set up a gallery called "Customs ready to print" sort by General then you can see the cards and find a figure you may have that has already been created. The current Custom gallery is a mess.


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Originally Posted by Skeletor View Post
Similar to the Halls of Valhalla thread but more of a gallery with more than 13 customs.
If you want to speed the process up, the #1 thing you can do is playtest. We need all the help we can get.
Will do!


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Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post

Either way if you are wanting to go the route of searching for customs starting with the A-Z Custom Unit Creators thread is probably a good place to start.
That's what I currently do but it takes time sifting through all those to find a good one
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  #1466  
Old January 10th, 2012, 01:28 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Skeletor,

We need more judges for the SoV, if you are interested:

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Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
Big News!!



The Soldiers of Valhalla program is looking to expand its membership. Anyone interested in serving as a judge, please PM ZBeeblebrox with (A) a short paragraph describing why you feel you would make an excellent SoV Judge and (B) 1-2 written reviews--including votes--on current units in review for the Soldiers of Valhalla (not including Tyrian). Please send your PM by January 15th.



(Yup, that means tis the season to play some SoV units!)

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  #1467  
Old January 10th, 2012, 02:19 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Looks like you have a hard enough time getting your current judges to vote.

I'm still confused why we have a C3G and a SoV. Aren't they the same concept to review and present tried and true tested customs?
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  #1468  
Old January 10th, 2012, 02:22 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Very different. C3G creates their own superhero customs in a peer review process. SoV only reviews non-superhero customs and doesn't do any custom creation.

C3V is bringing back classic 'scape! / C3G is creating SUPER stuff for Heroscape!
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I highly recommend C3V and C3G customs!
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  #1469  
Old January 10th, 2012, 02:25 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The C3G (and C3V) are groups that work together in the kind of creative space that the designers used, working on multiple units at a time, building in synergies, and carefully designing units to work together and with existing units in the game.

The SoV is like the BoV, a group that judges tried and true customs made by Scapers.

A simple way to think of it is the C3groups are working on "clumps" of units in a method reminiscent of the original designers, while the SoV is a "trickle" system--one unit at a time, nominated for review.

The C3groups start from scratch. The SoV start with units that are already designed.
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  #1470  
Old January 10th, 2012, 02:31 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Deepwater Warrior by dok

Game Play
When building an army with the Deepwater Warrior the first 'companion' that came to mind was the Greater Ice Elemetal. Love that unit and this was possibly a way to keep him alive long enough to get him into the fray. Unfortunately with the Deepwater Warrior being a melee unit, the strategy of using him to cover the GIE as they advance together wasn't possible (at least against ranged attacks).

Like the GIE and his snow, you get the most benefits from the DWW if you play on a map with plenty of water. In that case an army composition with Kurrok makes a lot of sense. You lose the bonding to the GIE when Kurrok activates them, but getting to activate three DWWs who are on water can be pretty devastating if the cards fall right.

Cost
At 30 points the DWW falls right into line with the other sm/med elementals. As a pseudo squad when you pair three (or more) with Kurrok they fall in line with the Krav cost wise, but without the range. I think it works, but may have been able to drop to 25.

Model
I'm not crazy about the model, but it works, and makes a lot of sense to be an elemental.

Availability
Plenty to go around and it's cheap, no problems here.

Conclusion
Over all the unit played well and nothing seemed unbalanced to me, but there was something missing the whole time during my testing. At no point was I excited about the unit. For some reason the fun factor wasn't there for me. I admit, I don't have a ton of experience with Kurrok and most of the elementals, and that may be where the bigget issue lies, the lack of appeal.

I vote No to induct into the SoV.

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  #1471  
Old January 10th, 2012, 02:41 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyys View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Bogue View Post
I understand the concerns with Beat Down but I'm not willing to change to intent of the power. I can certainly work on the wording. The Pulverizers are punchers. If they hit someone with a weak defense, then they can punch again. But if they hit a knight or granite guardian with strong defense, then they are basically stung from striking the harder armor and cannot punch again. That's how I want the power to work, but the suggested changes would alter that. I know that the wording is chunky but I don't want to change the intent.
I actually like the intent a lot, and when I made my suggetion I did think that this wasn't meant to be effective against units like the knights. The current wording I think is a bit clunky, otherwise I do like what you're going for with it.

Might we worth shooting a PM to one of our resident wordsmiths to see if they can help.
I think this is a good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by robbdaman View Post
Two NO votes mean its automatically removed. Please keep in mind that some discussion is expected but workshopping of a submission should be done elsewhere.
Actually, that's only true at the review stage. A card can still reach review with two "no to review" votes - athough, obviously, that card will need to flip some of those "nay" votes to "yea" votes to get inducted.
If this unit is indeed still hanging around (I'll admit, I've got behind and I'm not sure), then I'll put it out of it's misery. I vote NO on the Pulverizers.

I think there are good things here, but still not fully realized. I'm also still nervous about this kind of two-man squad and even the idea of two such different units making a squad. Anyhow, individually, it's mostly little things I'm either unsure of or don't like, but overall, I think the Pulverizers need a reboot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I'd like to nominate another of my customs, the Hoplitron:



The Figure is the "Dark Trooper Phase I" From the Star Wars miniatures line. It is very cheap and widely available.

The figure is large, but the base is D3-sized, so the figure fits on a single hex without rebasing. They are pretty small for a large figure, but bigger than the Ice Troll for sure.

Shield Push is a variation on many other movement powers. Note that
  1. it can be used on both friends and foes, and
  2. it "moves" the figure one space - it does not place the figure. So you cannot move the figure up a level, only same-level or down, and you can't move a figure onto heavy snow or slippery ice.
Melee Soulborg Bonding is another wyrmling-style bonding power. The only figures that are currently available to bond with the Hoplitron this way are other Hoplitrons, Major X17, and DW7k. I have designed another figure with this same power, and another melee soulborg hero, but neither of those are really necessary to evaluate this figure.

I haven't found these guys to be effective bread and butter figures en masse, but they are handy as shock troops to deliver a few big hits and clear a choke point on a map. They also tend to work better when mixed in with small/medium figures, so they can push their allies forward as well as push their enemies back. Their large immunities also make them useful in armies with small/medium figures.

Thanks in advance to the judges for considering my design.
Wow. A very interesting unit. I love the bonding options and the X17 love. Very smart and needed, imo.

I'm not sure about the stats and price. Comparing this guy to the Wyrmlings, I'm left thinking just how valuable those limited range attacks are? Compared to most common heroes, this guy just looks stacked. Sure, there are lots of differences (special and ranged attacks, for example), but I'm uncomfortable. He appears to be the ultimate Common Hero in melee settings.

Dok, how important are both of the 4/6 stats? How does this unit do in a HoB setting?

Clearly the 2 activations a turn limits them a lot, but these guys sure look like they put all other melee Common Heroes to shame. They just don't seem to "fit" in with what we have.
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  #1472  
Old January 10th, 2012, 03:08 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I don't know - comparing it to a chain fighter that costs 10 points less, the stats don't seem that crazy. 4/6 vs 4/4 with HiD, and chain fighters are faster, too.

Just sayin.

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  #1473  
Old January 10th, 2012, 03:13 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I may well be wrong, but those two defense dice are a lot, esp for a melee hero that needs to last long enough to get up and into range. Six dice can be fickle, but they can also last through an incredibly hail of dice, in my experience.

I'm not writing him off or voting NO yet; I'm asking questions first.
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  #1474  
Old January 10th, 2012, 03:53 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
I'd like to nominate another of my customs, the Hoplitron:

Spoiler Alert!
Wow. A very interesting unit. I love the bonding options and the X17 love. Very smart and needed, imo.

I'm not sure about the stats and price. Comparing this guy to the Wyrmlings, I'm left thinking just how valuable those limited range attacks are? Compared to most common heroes, this guy just looks stacked. Sure, there are lots of differences (special and ranged attacks, for example), but I'm uncomfortable.
There's really no perfect comparison for these guys. The wyrmlings match them in activations, but comparing a small, flying hero with a ranged special attack to a large melee hero is very close to hopeless. Sure, a pack of Hoplitrons will annihilate a pack of Black Wyrmings in a head-to-head matchup, but the Black Wyrmlings can start a turn 10 spaces away from a Krav and kill one half the time. Their roles are so different that a direct comparison is almost meaningless. (FWIW, I could test 6 red wyrmlings against 5 Hoplitrons - while I still don't think it's a very meaningful measure of the value of the Hoplitrons, that could be an interesting fight, actually. Who I would favor would depend a lot on the map.)

The Hoplitrons are quite similar to the wyrmlings in that (unlike most other common heroes) they make a lot of sense as a filler for the last ~120 points in an army. But that's pretty much where the similarities end, in my mind.

Swog Riders are Large, but are cheerleaders that bond with a ranged squad. No real comparison there, either.

The Dumutefs are our first useful comparison. They are large and have similar stats (4/4), but bond with Death Knights - that's 3 attacks versus two. The matchup calculator doesn't really allow us to test this, but fortunately the expected points inflicted with an attack of 4 is nearly identical when attacking a Death Knight or a Dumutef, so we can do this one on the back of the envelope.

Hoplitrons, with 2 attacks of 4 per turn, will inflict an average of 27.8 points of damage per turn per turn against Death Knights and Dumutefs. Death Knights and Dumutefs, with 2 attack of 2+soul weapons and 1 attack of 4, will inflict an average of 36.75 points of damage per turn against Hoplitrons. So, that B- combo wins, point-for-point. Granted, this doesn't account for the side advantages of the Hoplitrons (all-large figures, ability to move allies and enemies).

Then there's the non-bonding common heroes. The Sahuagin Raider is designed to play against wounded heroes, and is pretty weak overall. Hoplitrons are much better than them, but given that they are C- figures this is not something I worried about too much.

The Drow Chainfighter is the much stronger single-activation common hero. At 175 points, 5 Hoplitrons defeat 7 DCFs 73% of the time, owing almost entirely to getting twice as many activations. (If we made the DCFs a squad of 2, they would flip the matchup almost exactly, winning 73% of the time, too.)

So, long and short of it - activations are king. They are worse head-to-head than the (stat and power-poor) Dumutefs, because the Dumutefs get 3 activations in an OM. They are better than the (stat and power-rich) DCFs, because the DCFs only get one attack per OM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
He appears to be the ultimate Common Hero in melee settings.
The Fire Elemental would like a word with you...

The Elementals have an extra activation when played with Kurrok, but we can still try to compare them. Water Elementals (ranged) and Air Elementals (flying utility figure) don't really make sense as points of comparison, but Earth and Fire elementals are both reasonable tools of comparison.

At 400 vs. 415, you can compare 8 triple-activating FEs vs. 11 Hoplitrons. FEs win 55% of the time, despite the matchup calculator's extremely conservative way of guessing the number of Searing Intensity rolls you get, and this is without even considering the possibility that Kurrok can revive elementals or finish off the remaining Hoplitrons. In reality, this would be much closer to 80/20 on even ground, or worse, probably. I could test this if you need convincing.

Earth Elementals would be much closer, of course, owing to not having the ridiculously awesome Searing Intensity power. The matchup calculator puts them at 47% underdogs if they can hit two figures per activation with Earth Slam, and 22% underdogs if they are reduced to using their normal attacks. Again, this leaves out the possibility of Kurrok running and gunning and reviving at the end of the game, so the real numbers would be much better for the elementals. Still, I think it's fair to say that the Hoplitrons slot in between the A- Fire Elemental and the B- Earth Elemental in their value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
Dok, how important are both of the 4/6 stats?
The 4/6 stats are quite high, I agree, but I think they fit.

As I said in response to qt.bangerang, I think another useful point of comparison is the Minions of Utgar, whose 2/6 stats with Deadly Strike are comparable to the Hoplitron's 4/6 stats. Hoplitrons are slightly less expensive per figure (35 versus 37) and have large immunities and the shield push power, but give up flight, the extra bonus of height advantage, and (by far) most crucially, the third activation. Hoplitrons versus Minions gets ugly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
How does this unit do in a HoB setting?
I have to admit that I never tested this. I agree that, like any slow-to-mobilize melee figure, they like HoB. I find it nearly impossible to believe they would be more effective than the Fire Elementals at any point level at or above 400, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Mmirg View Post
Clearly the 2 activations a turn limits them a lot, but these guys sure look like they put all other melee Common Heroes to shame. They just don't seem to "fit" in with what we have.
I think the above analyses demonstrates to some extent that the current common heroes have a lot going for them. These guys do outshine the single-activation common heroes (the DCF and the S-Raider), but seem to slot in in the middle of the power range of the rest. I don't think the Hoplitrons are out of scale with the other common heroes in terms of raw power, or overall utility/effectiveness considering special powers.
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  #1475  
Old January 11th, 2012, 11:14 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Well, dok, I'm willing to give them a run. I worry that there is just a bit too much raw stats packed into those 35 points and that testing will bear that out. But if you feel confident that you've dialed them in closely, I'm willing to trust your track record (and your comments above) enough to give them a nod.

I vote YES to review the Hoplitrons.
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  #1476  
Old January 11th, 2012, 11:50 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I vote no to dok's Hoplitrons.

The similarities to the Drow Chainfighter are significant enough that I think it's fair to use them, as KC did, for a reference point.*
Quote:
Originally Posted by killercactus View Post
I don't know - comparing it to a chain fighter that costs 10 points less, the stats don't seem that crazy. 4/6 vs 4/4 with HiD, and chain fighters are faster, too.

Just sayin.
These guys seem to me a somewhat more durable Drow Chainfighter with bonding, and bonding is worth more than 10 points.

Comparing a pair of them (70 points) to a squad of Death Knights at 60 points, I'm getting a 4 attack instead of Soul Weapons and a higher defense plus Shield Push, which seems to me significantly stronger. Many thanks to dok and to all of you who take the time to nominate units, but I'm going to dok's Hoplitrons, as I said at the top.

edit: I've been asked privately about my vote on this figure. It is possible my theoryscaping is off the mark. The best way to beat my bad theoryscaping is with practical experience described in the nomination.

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Last edited by Dad_Scaper; January 11th, 2012 at 01:37 PM. Reason: * not that I agree with his conclusion. :-)
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