The Book of Beyonder

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Yea. He is looking Dy-No-Mite!

[Griffin]

I am sorry, but I can't vote to move this card forward. I think we need to think more about this card and what needs to be done, but this power has no valid theme behind it. It is clearly a "fix it" power designed to cover the ass of the rest of the card.

DIMENSIONAL TWISTING
All terrain within 10 spaces of Beyonder does not have terrain effects.

I am sorry, but when Beyonder shows up, people cannot suddenly walk on water, avoid lava, run across snow, lose their bonus on concrete, asphalt, or road, and they certainly don't lose their ability to boost their defense by hiding behind jungle trees..... I just can't support this AT ALL.

[Griffin]

OK, I hear the concern about how Beyonder is TOO powerful on lava, I hear that. But currently, that fear is based on speculation, not fact. I think we need to playtest first on lava before "fixing" anything. After all, we did already "fix" lava rules.

Lets test more and see what the test results say before freaking out.

[IAmBatman]

Perhaps we can hold up the current vote until I can get another test in with him ... I'll proxy the shadow tiles on Platforms 5 and 6 as lava and try it out tomorrow.

[Griffin]

So for now, I vote NAY.

[A3n]

Just to help the train with the braking, I'll vote Nay for the moment also.

[GreyOwl]

Okay, I'm okay with waiting on another test.

The thing with the lava is, it is thematic. I mean this guy could kill any hero with just a thought, but I can also see how it would be annoying to play against. Also, Aldin's fix is also thematic. Even though Beyonder doesn't normally change terrain around, it's not beyond (no pun intended) his ability to do so. It's not that far off from him putting Battleworld together.

But yeah, let's try some more tests with lava and see where we stand.

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

Okay, I'm okay with waiting on another test.

The thing with the lava is, it is thematic. I mean this guy could kill any hero with just a thought, but I can also see how it would be annoying to play against. Also, Aldin's fix is also thematic. Even though Beyonder doesn't normally change terrain around, it's not beyond (no pun intended) his ability to do so. It's not that far off from him putting Battleworld together.

But yeah, let's try some more tests with lava and see where we stand.

If it is thematic for him to do all those things that I listed, can I have some references where he has done them? Not trying to be too too cocky here, but I bet you won't be able to produce those references.

[IAmBatman]

- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder (2500) vs. Invisible Woman (215), Blob (165), Super-Skrull (340), Martian Manhunter (300), Green Lantern John Stewart (340), Graviton (400), Jean Grey (180), Loki (420), and Spider-Girl (140) (2500)

Spoiler Alert!

OK, I figured a map like this was perfect for Beyonder to abuse, so I counter-drafted him as completely as possible ... and he got completely owned. Beyonder lost on Turn 1 of Round 7 after killing Jean Grey, putting 1 wound on Blob, putting 2 wounds on Spider-Girl, and draining two of John Stewart's power batteries. Everyone else was just fine. Spider-Girl took tons of turns away from Beyonder with Bio-Magnetic Field, Psionic Grip and Gravitational Grasp made Beyonder shy away from a lot of attempts to move people at other times, Reverse Gravity moved Beyonder away from lava and Blob stuck him there, Telepathic Dispatch and Basket Carry made it easy to control the battlefield and place all the pieces where it was optimal, and Martian Manhunter on height, along with Invisible Woman (whose aura protected everyone) made life very difficult for Beyonder. Martian Manhunter put just about every wound on Beyonder except for a couple from John Stewart's Green Shield Defense, but this was a total team effort (other than Loki, who I was saving for clean up). In a drafting game, even on a lava map, Beyonder is far from unbeatable.

[GreyOwl]

Originally Posted by Griffin

If it is thematic for him to do all those things that I listed, can I have some references where he has done them? Not trying to be too too cocky here, but I bet you won't be able to produce those references.

I didn't mean that he had done those specific things, I meant that it's within his power to do so if he wanted. Kind of like Superman being able to fly to Pluto. There may not be a comic where he ever did it, but given what we know about his powers we know he could do it. Same with Beyonder - he can do anything, so that's within his power, and therefore not unthematic.

But it really doesn't matter, because I'm open to changing or removing that power if we need to, it's not a big deal. Let's see what Bats comes up with in his playtests.

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by GreyOwl

I didn't mean that he had done those specific things, I meant that it's within his power to do so if he wanted. Kind of like Superman being able to fly to Pluto. There may not be a comic where he ever did it, but given what we know about his powers we know he could do it. Same with Beyonder - he can do anything, so that's within his power, and therefore not unthematic.

But it really doesn't matter, because I'm open to changing or removing that power if we need to, it's not a big deal. Let's see what Bats comes up with in his playtests.

Gotcha. Now just so you understand where I am coming from on this, I think that it is bit crazy to put a power on a card of a character, and it be a power that the character has never done. I mean technically, Beyonder could turn everyone on the battlefield into a gelatinous cube, but why would we want to do that if it is something he has never done?

I think that it is clear that the proposed power was simply a "fixit" power, and there is nothing entirely wrong with that, but there is IMO, when the power has no true representation of the character.

There, I just wanted to make sure you knew why I voted the way I did, and that it had nothing to do with the rest of the design (which I think is great btw).

[GreyOwl]

Oh, the power is absolutely a fixit power, I don't think anyone is denying that. I understand your vote, and I don't even fully disagree, so no worries.

So just in case the playtest shows that it is a problem, do you have any other ideas on fixing it?

(by the way, we could totally do the gelatinous cube idea! )