Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

[dok]

Originally Posted by Shades fan

I think because even an amazing great map like Ember Canyon Road, can be a great map that passes through the BOV, but then(From what I've seen) won't get much play because of the massive amount of terrain needed to build it in a tournament situation this becomes a real problem.

One of the judges (it's in this thread if you care to search for who) said that if they could change a vote they've made, it would be their approval of ECR (or maybe it was Swamp Thing, but the point stands). Not because they think it's a bad map, but because they consider it a poor use of the needed resources.

But this is actually my point, you see. At the time ECR came along, the judges were basically excited to see a map that maxxed out the requirements. With all due respect to the judges of that time (which, I must stress, is an enormous amount of respect), things have evolved a lot since then, and the current judges have a nuanced appreciation for how much they expect from a map relative to its material requirements.

For this reason, I think that a more permissive rule set is, if anything, more appropriate now than it was before. The judges should err on the side of giving themselves the freedom to decide on a case-by-case basis if the map merits its material requirements. In stead, they've moved in the opposite direction, outlawing the induction of maps that would previously have been considered BoV-eligible builds.

Originally Posted by Shades fan

I think that everyone is missing the tournament aspect of this. If it comes between choosing your Swamp Helix, and Fossil [I'm sure an equally good map]

I'm more than happy to have my map considered "equally good" with Fossil, for sure.

Originally Posted by Shades fan

I'm choosing fossil every time for a tournament because it gives me as a TD extra sets which do cost money.I would love to have a surplus of sets, but usually for my tournament, I need to have people bring maps which is a huge pain.
10 ROTV Masterset's still only equal 20 maps, without extras.

But now, all those Marvel sets people have lying around are much closer to useless. Because it simply makes little sense to build a Marvel map when you can use D&D or SotM and have a lot more options as a map-builder. Marvel is, by far, the most easily available set right now - even more than D&D. Restricting its use in maps just doesn't make sense to me.


This is really just about the changes to Marvel. Let's take a step back for a second. These are the changes in the new rules, relative to the old ones:

1. D&D gets the old SotM rules.
2. You can no longer use SotMx2 on a map.
3. Marvel now counts as two expansions in stead of one.

The first rule does make sense - D&D does have significantly less material than SotM, but hey, life's not fair. I'd prefer something more permissive, but I can see it.

The second rule is a little weird when RotV+SotM is allowed. That's a LOT more material than SotMx2.

The third rule basically means that Marvel is now uniformly less useful in designing a BoV-eligible map to SotM and D&D, both of which have more material of all types and some custom terrian.

Look at a map like Jack of Spades by Gamebear. It's one of the best of the new D&D maps, and it uses D&D + Marvel + TJ. That's still BoV-eligible, thankfully. However, let's say someone was inspired by that map, and decided to try to add FotA to it, to makes something akin to Invasion. That's the sort of map I'd be really excited to check out, to playtest, and possibly to see get inducted into the BoV. I don't think that map would be a greater stretch of material requirements than ECR or Swamp Thing or Ice Blossom.

(I also feel like RotVx2 + D&Dx2 was an obvious option that was begging to be explored, and now it can't make it to the BoV. Again, I'm just bummed at how restrictive the judges chose to make it, in stead of giving themselves more room to make case-by-case decisions.)

[Riggler]

Originally Posted by dok

Yep. Hopefully, it's considered grandfathered in at this point, and can continue through the review process.

I wasn't on the BOV when Swamp Helix was agreed to be reviewed. And I haven't built Swamp Helix, but if the required sets is correct, it wouldn't have been allowed in under the previous guidelines.

There was quite a lot of changeover on the BOV panel around the time that SotM and Marvel appeared. The discussion between judges that adopted the SotM rule is archived, SotM was never meant to have two of those in a single build.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Riggler

I wasn't on the BOV when Swamp Helix was agreed to be reviewed. And I haven't built Swamp Helix, but if the required sets is correct, it wouldn't have been allowed in under the previous guidelines.

There was quite a lot of changeover on the BOV panel around the time that SotM and Marvel appeared. The discussion between judges that adopted the SotM rule is archived, SotM was never meant to have two of those in a single build.

I'm not sure what you mean. Swamp Helix's requirements are SotM, Marvel, RttFF, and FotA. That was certainly legal under the old rules, at least as they were repeatedly explained on this thread. SotMx2 + RttFF + FotA wouldn't be legal, if that's what you meant.

SotMx2 was also a legal build by the old rules, although you could only have one expansion with it. SotMx2 + TJ would have been allowed, for instance. Under the new rules, SotMx2 + TJ is illegal, but RotV + SotM + TJ is fine.

[Riggler]

Dok,

I was here when we passed the guildelines for Marvel and SotM. No ill will towards those who have come since me, and their inturpretations of the guildelines, but to your points Marvel was supposed to be limited to one per build just like FotA. Secondly, it was never the intent of those who passed the guildlines previously to allow two SotM in a single build. this is why the language said it could be used as a master set or two expansions as opposed to "a master set and/or two expansions"

Having said that, I'm sure there will be discussions among us judges in the coming weeks, regarding other sets, but we felt we needed to get some ruling out there for D&D. This was the compromise. It clarified the original intent of Marvel and SotM and laid down a ruling on D&D.

BOV was never ever intended to see how much material one could cram into a single map. Limiting the amount of material mattered (and still does to me) for three reasons. 1) Tournament directors and availalbe material used to run a tournament -- less is better. 2) Tournament maps with exensive material can take longer to set up -- less is better. 3) Tournament games on bigger maps GENERALLY take longer to play and with a time limit -- less is better. 4) CASUAL gamers are not likely to buy lots of multiple sets -- less is better 5) As you can see we test a lot of maps and some of us test a map a lot, some a little. The fewer maps we have to test because they are unlikely to see table time because of the material involved either in a tournament or among casual gamers -- is better.

[Riggler]

Originally Posted by dok

I'm not sure what you mean. Swamp Helix's requirements are SotM, Marvel, RttFF, and FotA. That was certainly legal under the old rules, at least as they were repeatedly explained on this thread. SotMx2 + RttFF + FotA wouldn't be legal, if that's what you meant.

SotMx2 was also a legal build by the old rules, although you could only have one expansion with it. SotMx2 + TJ would have been allowed, for instance. Under the new rules, SotMx2 + TJ is illegal, but RotV + SotM + TJ is fine.

I stand corrected. Yes, Swamp Helix would be allowed under the old rules.

SotMx2 was never intended, as the guildlines should have included the "and/or" language for that to have been allowed.

[1Mmirg]

FWIW, I want to reiterate the general rule for the BOV from the beginning has been a single MS with expansions, as needed. (See Section 1-3.) Differing size MSs, etc., have led to flux, but that statement is still the core of the BOV project, imo.

As I TD, I want to have most of my maps be 1 MS with 1 expansion. A few excellent maps use 2 expansions. Beyond that, maps with even more required sets just don't get much if any use in a tourney, at least not mine, not usually.

(I can imagine a map using more and being fine--and thus, the rules have some give in them--but in general, as a TD, I'm looking for simple. Less is more.)

On another note, here are my responses to maps waiting to be accepted:

Striking Distance:

I’ll admit, I like split start zones, but not too far divided. When taken too far, it seems like set-up time increases and d20 rolls for placement preference become more common, etc. I don’t like to feel like losing a d20 roll before the game begins will greatly impact my game and chances.

That said, I’m tempted to try SD. I’m a bit nervous about the small start areas so close to the glyph, I’m nervous about what Reavers might do on this map, I wish the start zones weren't quite so close to each other. However, I’m willing to give this a run and see what comes up. I vote YES to accept for review.

Paved Paradise:

This one crosses my nervous line. I think melee armies are going to really struggle, esp. if they miss the first initiative. The middle seems far too loaded (glyphs, height, etc. all within about a 7 hex circle in the center of the map). I think this map will swing too wildly. Rats, Dragons, etc. all seem to be devastating (Rats with Dragons--ouch!).

Another major reservation is the extreme height involved. With the peaks at 16, this map will really tip in the favor of those that can get to the towers first.

I like the map and concept, but I don’t think I’d ever choose it for an event I ran or want to play on it in a tourney setting. At home, though, absolutely--very fun! I vote NO to reviewing this map.

Dvalin’s Furnace

Okay, I’ve got a soft spot for lava maps. And I love blending them with heavy road for the melee boost. I have no qualms about the lava on top of the castle pieces; works for me.

I haven’t set it up, but worry the castle pieces will look a bit odd. I’m also surprised to not see glyphs on the outside edges; this map seems to scream for something to pull traffic to the sides away from the road/center. I’m afraid without something to draw attention away from the center, the map will be repetitive in game play and the sides will simply not be used.

I vote NO, but hope to see this map again.

Jungle of the Ancients

Intriguing. I like what I see and I want to play on this one. There are some aesthetic things that bother me and I’m unclear why the walls aren’t used as more effective LOS blockers, but in all it seems promising. I vote YES to review.

Hope I haven't made any new enemies today. I appreciate the chance to judge such extraordinary maps. The talent here is amazing. Thanks for the hard work and the excellent nominations.

[arp12]

Thanks Riggler for your efforts in explaining these changes. I'll chime in here that I'm also slightly confused by the new rulings. I understand the reasons for the changes (though I disagree with some), except for one thing: If you don't want to allow SotM x2, then why is SotM + RotV allowed?

[dok]

I really appreciate your willingness to discuss this openly, Riggler.

Originally Posted by Riggler

I was here when we passed the guildelines for Marvel and SotM. No ill will towards those who have come since me, and their inturpretations of the guildelines, but to your points Marvel was supposed to be limited to one per build just like FotA. Secondly, it was never the intent of those who passed the guildlines previously to allow two SotM in a single build. this is why the language said it could be used as a master set or two expansions as opposed to "a master set and/or two expansions"

Fair enough. The ruling has been pretty consistently interpreted the other way, but if that was the original intent, then going towards that ruling makes sense to me.

That said, to be consistent, if SotMx2 is not going to be a legal build, then really, RotV+SotM shouldn't be a legal build, either. It uses a lot more terrain than SotMx2. I just don't see why RotV+SotM should be allowed and SotMx2 shouldn't.

Please note that I am NOT suggesting that "Swamp Thing" should be un-inducted from the BoV. Even if the rules are changed so that another map like that is not allowed, it doesn't mean that a map that got in by the rules of that time should be taken out.

Originally Posted by Riggler

Having said that, I'm sure there will be discussions among us judges in the coming weeks, regarding other sets, but we felt we needed to get some ruling out there for D&D. This was the compromise. It clarified the original intent of Marvel and SotM and laid down a ruling on D&D.

Fair enough. I'm glad to hear that discussions are continuing.

Originally Posted by Riggler

BOV was never ever intended to see how much material one could cram into a single map. Limiting the amount of material mattered (and still does to me) for three reasons. 1) Tournament directors and availalbe material used to run a tournament -- less is better. 2) Tournament maps with exensive material can take longer to set up -- less is better. 3) Tournament games on bigger maps GENERALLY take longer to play and with a time limit -- less is better. 4) CASUAL gamers are not likely to buy lots of multiple sets -- less is better 5) As you can see we test a lot of maps and some of us test a map a lot, some a little. The fewer maps we have to test because they are unlikely to see table time because of the material involved either in a tournament or among casual gamers -- is better.

That's more than three reasons.

I agree with all of those reasons completely. However, again, the new rules are very punitive to the Marvel terrain - a set that all beginners have access to, a set that doesn't add a ton of time to setup, and a set that doesn't produce very large maps. Counting the Marvel set as two expansions doesn't seem to serve the guiding principles you've outlined here.

[1Mmirg]

Just wanted to reiterate that we are in discussion right now about these exact questions, arp12 and dok. Give us a bit more time to iron out all the implications of the changes we are considering.

[Riggler]

Dok and arp12,

This is speaking only from myself as I know others on the BOV panel feel differently, some vastly so.

From my perspective, I do this for casual Heroscaper looking for a great map to set up and play against a friend. And I wanted a place that those casual gamers could go to in order to find playtested maps that were balanced for both players, looked cool and played interestingly.

So how do I define a casual Heroscape gamer? Not one who has tons of each set lying around. In fact, most casual gamers as I define them probably have one of each, with maybe a duplicate here or there thrown in.

So in my votes on the guidelines I've always held those casual Heroscape players as the ones I do this for. And I have very little interest in the BOV spending much time, if any, playtesting maps that will see little table time simply for the reason that casual players lack the materials to build them.

We said when we started this project that if someone wanted to judge maps that included massive amounts of build material they were free to go judge massive maps. But that was not what the BOV was for.

And in MY votes on the guideline I will always fight for our time to be spent this way, because I feel it is wise.

[ElvenEnvy]

Originally Posted by Riggler

Dok and arp12,

This is speaking only from myself as I know others on the BOV panel feel differently, some vastly so.

From my perspective, I do this for casual Heroscaper looking for a great map to set up and play against a friend. And I wanted a place that those casual gamers could go to in order to find playtested maps that were balanced for both players, looked cool and played interestingly.

So how do I define a casual Heroscape gamer? Not one who has tons of each set lying around. In fact, most casual gamers as I define them probably have one of each, with maybe a duplicate here or there thrown in.

So in my votes on the guidelines I've always held those casual Heroscape players as the ones I do this for. And I have very little interest in the BOV spending much time, if any, playtesting maps that will see little table time simply for the reason that casual players lack the materials to build them.

We said when we started this project that if someone wanted to judge maps that included massive amounts of build material they were free to go judge massive maps. But that was not what the BOV was for.

And in MY votes on the guideline I will always fight for our time to be spent this way, because I feel it is wise.

The only problem I see in this is that most members of this site aren't casual. Most people who know how to navigate around, find maps, and know about the BOV aren't casual Heroscapers. Besides I think casual Heroscapers probably aren't into well-balanced heavily playtested maps, they are happy just to set things up and go. In fact many find the abstract fun of building their own maps to be just as fun as playing the game. Balanced, playtested maps sound competitive and competitive sounds more hardcore than casual.

I find the other reasons dealing with game duration, set-up time, and amount of supplies to be good reasons. I just wouldn't read too much into making maps for casual heroscapers.

[dok]

1Mmirg, thanks for the note. I have a lot of faith in you guys to carefully consider all the perspectives and come up with a well-considered solution. Please don't take my posts here as the naysaying of someone who's down on the BoV process.

Originally Posted by Riggler

So in my votes on the guidelines I've always held those casual Heroscape players as the ones I do this for. And I have very little interest in the BOV spending much time, if any, playtesting maps that will see little table time simply for the reason that casual players lack the materials to build them.

This is a very, very valuable perspective to have in the BoV judging. My point is that I think making the Marvel set so difficult to fit into BoV maps doesn't really fit this goal. In Wal-Marts all over America, the only terrain available for purchase is the Marvel set.