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Old November 15th, 2009, 06:37 PM
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Re: Evolution vs Creation, Youtube series

Wow, Hal0fan117, you sure do have things mixed up. I'd be a little more knowledgeable about these thing before you go prodding around. Gulp at least knows what he's talking about.

"I always hated this argument. It's just using fear to convince atheists and agnostics to join your faith. It's true: We do stand to lose everything. But I know that I wouldn't care, heaven or hell."

It's not using fear at all. If you don't care, then there's nothing to fear. If you believe that you are correct and we're religious nuts, you have absolutely nothing to fear. If you feel you havereason to fear, then you've got at least part of you dsaying that we just might be right--which would explain your running away from religion--reaction formation. (Psychology. Look it up.)

And I'd care f I were you. See next reply.

"Consider this, either way your doomed to a life of boredom. the way I've heard hell described, it sounds alright. Your nerve endings burn away pretty quickly, you don't have any thoughts at all either. Sounds nice, eternal peace."

First off, no life of boredom. I'm no Amish or Quaker--I have a totally fun and fulfilling life. Do I stay awya from certain tings? Yes--but they are thing that aren't hurting my quality of life by abstaining from them. In fact, there are few things the Bible says specifically not to do--and most of these hurt your quality of life by doing them. I definitely wouldn't get a kick out of killing someone, and if you don't think adultery can hurt your quality of life, you obviously haven't been though or witnessed the heartaches of divorce and torn homes. Your argment here is totally unfounded. I'm sure even Gulp would lump you into the category of arguing without any evidence on this one.

Secondly--you have one warped view of Heavn and Hell. I don't know what pipe you were smoking when you came up with these, or when you were supposedly reading your way through the Bible, but you've got it all wrong. First of all, you apparently missed all the descriptions of Hell in the Bible:

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30)

"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).

"The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6).

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:.

"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44).

"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Revelation 9:2).

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11).

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24). The rich man wanted water but could not get any.

Just to name a few. Endless torment, burning, wailing and gnashing of teeth, a second death... Not so peaceful, i it? Downright scary. You won't get used to the pain there. It won't be an earthly, physical pain. It will be a tormenting pain, of what was lost, what could have been if you'd chosen the right path (Heaven), and, the worst torment possible--the eternal seperation from God.

Besides, even if you want to take it in terms of physical pain, your point is invalid. You don't always get used to physical pain. There are plenty of disorders that cause you to feel pain that doesn't go away, ever--Fibro Mialgia is one, and another would be phantom pains from lost limbs. Don't believe me on thatlast one? Talk to plenty of Vietnam war vets. Ask them if the pain has gotten any easier over the years. And be prepared to run.

Now Heaven: definitely not what you say, where we all become part of the Creator. Here's some examples.

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." (1 Corinthians 2:9)

"Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." (Matthew 5:12)

"And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Revelation 4:8-11)

"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field." (Matthew 13:44)

"Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." (Luke 10:20)

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

Just some descriptions of what goes on in Heaven. Of the actual place:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9. And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:1-27)

Things definitely don't just get merged into God in the end. The Bible CLEARLY states that the old Heaven and old Earth pass away, and God creates a new Heaven and new Earth, which will be forever inhabited by his faithful followers. So, especially if you've read the Bible the whole way through, you should go back and check your facts.

I don't mean to sound all high-and-mighty or condescending--but you've gotten pretty offensive. Discussion bfoe may have bee heated, but it was civil.

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