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The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Playtesting(Fellowship A)
NAME = Orc Deep Drummer
GENERAL = UTGAR SPECIES = Orc UNIQUENESS = Common Hero CLASS = Drummer PERSONALITY = Fearsome SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/4 LIFE = 1 MOVE = 5 RANGE = 1 ATTACK = 1 DEFENSE = 3 POINTS = 35 DRUMS IN THE DEEP After revealing an Order Marker on Orc Deep Drummer and before moving, you may roll the 20-sided die. * If you roll 1- 3, nothing happens. * If you roll 3-10, you may move up to 4 unengaged Orc Squad figures you control 3 spaces each. * If you roll 11-19, you may move up to 8 unengaged Orc Squad figures you control 3 spaces each. * If you roll 20 or higher, move up to 12 unengaged Orc Squad figures you control 3 spaces each. Doom, Boom Anytime you roll the 20-sided die for an Orc Army Card, you may add 1 to your roll for each Orc Deep Drummer you control. Orc Deep Drummers are affected by Doom, Boom. Character Bio "We cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the bridge and Second Hall. Frár and Lóni and Náli fell there bravely while the rest retreated to the Chamber of…Mazarbul. We are still ho{ldin}g...but hope …Óin's party went five days ago but today only four returned. The pool is up to the wall at West-gate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin--we cannot get out. The end comes soon. We hear drums, drums in the deep. They are coming." —Ori's last entry in the Book of Mazarbul -RULINGS and CLARIFICATIONS- * ORC SUPREMACY: Each War Drummer that you have in your Army will increase the potency of this ability. Each War Drummer will add 1 to the d20 rolls of Orcs that use a d20 power to include other War Drummers. -COMBINATIONS and SYNERGIES- Synergy Benefits Received (Insert links to figures that benefit the unit, and short explanation of synergy) Synergy Benefits Offered (Insert links to figures that this unit benefits, and a short explanation of synergy) -TENTATIVE FIGURE- D&D Orc Wardrummer #56 (or #32) |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
Previous Version History:
6/24/2020
Spoiler Alert!
7/10/2020
Spoiler Alert!
9/17/2020
Spoiler Alert!
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
War Drum seems like a really low payoff. I don't see a reason to ever put an OM on this guy instead of the orcs themselves. I would beef up the number of spaces and have the d20 vary from no figures moved, to 4, to 8, to possibly 12.
@Chris Perkins @Shiftrex |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I like him moving that many orcs - gives a reason to include him.
Not sure that I like him boosting his own D20 - classic scape generally avoided that. If we're in agreement with that I can update the OP to say 'Echoing Beat' does not affect a Deep Drummer. Would we want one Deep Drummer to improve another's roll? Say you include 2 of them, could they then increase the d20 by 1? That seems reasonable to me |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I think them boosting eachother is totally fine and works with the idea of drums being "rchoed" by other drummers. Easily fixed by adding the word "other Orc" into the power.
I'm excited with this version of the power because you can see a literal swarm of Orcs charging in. Hits the Moria vibe well for me |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
We're on the same page here. Moving 12 figures is pretty unprecedented (Gilbert could do it with a 1-in-a-million roll) so lets set the target for that to 20.
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
Relevant here:
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
Common heroes need to have only 1 life.
If common, I think 40 points is a good place to start testing at. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I would think 25 points
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
Maybe 40 is a bit high, but I think this kind of board control is worth more than a single swog rider (25) is to arrow gruts.
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I think you're forgetting how unreliable this power is, and how few spaces 3 move is.
Let's start at 30 or 35. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I'm on board for 35, 3 spaces is honestly a crawl. This guy isnt sir gilbert.
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I looked at Gilbert's card again. Bonding makes a big difference but on an 11 or higher this guy's ability is arguably better than Gilbert's. Let's start at 35.
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
NAME = Deep Drummer
GENERAL = UTGAR UNIQUENESS = Common Hero CLASS = War Drummer PERSONALITY = Wild SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5? LIFE = 1 MOVE = 5 RANGE = 1 ATTACK = 1 DEFENSE = 3 POINTS = 35 WAR DRUM After revealing an Order Marker on Deep Drummer you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1- 3, nothing happens. If you roll 3-10, you may move up to 4 unengaged Orc squad figures 3 spaces each. If you roll 11-19, you may move up to 8 unegaged Orc squad figures 3 spaces each. If you roll 20, move up to 12 unengaged Orc squad figures 3 spaces each. ECHOING BEAT Whenever an other Orc that you control makes a 20-sided die roll they may add 1 to it. Havent seen comments on this in a few days. Let's get momentum back. I like this draft, anyone see problems with it currently. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I'm pretty happy with it; I just updated the OP to have this version of the text.
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I suspect we'll want to move that 11-19 up to 12, 13, or higher... but maybe not.
I'm happy with this and we can probably start the editing checklist for it. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I really like this card, I am happy with the results.
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
Spoiler Alert!
Spoiler Alert!
Updated for OP. NAME = Deep Drummer GENERAL = UTGAR UNIQUENESS = Common Hero CLASS = War Drummer PERSONALITY = Wild SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5? LIFE = 1 MOVE = 5 RANGE = 1 ATTACK = 1 DEFENSE = 3 POINTS = 35 WAR DRUM After revealing an Order Marker on Deep Drummer you may roll the 20-sided die. * If you roll 1- 3, nothing happens. * If you roll 3-10, you may move up to 4 unengaged Orc Squad figures 3 spaces each. * If you roll 11-19, you may move up to 8 unegaged Orc Squad figures 3 spaces each. * If you roll 20, move up to 12 unengaged Orc Squad figures 3 spaces each. ECHOING BEAT Whenever another Orc that you control makes a 20-sided die roll they may add 1 to it. Character Bio: (taken from Tolkien Gateway, I think we should do something like this for Bios instead of writing original stuff) "We cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the bridge and Second Hall. Frár and Lóni and Náli fell there bravely while the rest retreated to the Chamber of…Mazarbul. We are still ho{ldin}g...but hope …Óin's party went five days ago but today only four returned. The pool is up to the wall at West-gate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin--we cannot get out. The end comes soon. We hear drums, drums in the deep. They are coming." —Ori's last entry in the Book of Mazarbul -RULINGS and CLARIFICATIONS- * Echoing Beats: Each War Drummer that you have in your Army will increase the potency of this ability. Each War Drummer will add 1 to the d20 rolls of Orcs that use a d20 power to include other War Drummers. -COMBINATIONS and SYNERGIES- Synergy Benefits Received (Insert links to figures that benefit the unit, and short explanation of synergy) Synergy Benefits Offered (Insert links to figures that this unit benefits, and a short explanation of synergy) |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I like that HoME Internal Checklist. Was that something we had from before or did you come up with it?
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
So we need to consider:
should "Moria" be in the character name? should "Orc" be in the character name? Deep Drummer vs. War Drummer? I prefer Deep Drummer and I'm a yes on Moria but I'm apathetic about Orc. Consistency would probably dictate we include Orc. Regarding general, I would say Utgar, no question in my mind about that. Regarding Cave Dweller, I'm happy to leave it off here. I think we should put a "before moving" clause on the movement power: "After revealing an order marker, before moving" just so it is crystal clear when it occurs. Regarding miniature I think our "default"/"official" miniature should be the D&D Orc Wardrummer #56 (or #32, I can't tell for sure). Although it is absurdly priced so this will be one we'll want to be sure we have plenty of proxies for, either unpainted or even 3d-printed. http://940ee6dce6677fa01d25-0f55c912...res/138395.jpg @Chris Perkins I looked over the editing checklist, and with the caveats above it looks good to me. Would you give it a look? Thanks again for doing this @Shiftrex |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I think that Orc should be considered in the name of this card to stay consistent with the rest of the cards that we make.
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Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I also prefer "Deep Drummer" - it both fits the narrative better (drums in the deep) and gives us more flexibility later if, say, we wanted a troll drummer like what appears in the siege of Minas Tirith in the RotK movie.
Definitely Utgar - all metrics we have considered so far agree on that. I agree with @capocrates on the change to "before moving". I have no problem with that miniature - in general, I'm not the most knowledgeable about miniatures (I've never collected the physical C3V figs) so I'll probably end up deferring a lot in that regard. I'm torn on inclusion of cave dweller; it certainly fits thematically, but if we include it here we must include it for all moria orcs & trolls we create as the only real reason to include it here is for consistency among those cards. Also, being aware of the fact that many people did not want overly complex cards, having 3 powers per card may be excessive, and I don't think the movement boost does this figure a lot of good anyways. So I lean towards not including cave dweller, just to reduce the average number of powers on the secondary moria orc cards, but I wouldn't hate it if it ended up on the card (extra powers doesn't bother me much, but a good portion of our intended audience has asked to avoid it). Regarding "Moria" being in the character name, I think we should only include regional information when necessary to identify the character; i.e. an orc could be from the Misty Mountains or Mordor, but a "Deep Drummer" can only be from Moria, so I think inclusion in the name is unnecessary and redundant. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I vote not to include cave dweller as well, was just part of the checklist and review process.
That miniature looks dope, I like it a lot. Though I don't know how much my judgement of figures should be relied on, i'm just using a gamesworkshop unpainted miniature for this. Moria is indeed redundant, I'm on board with that reasoning. Consistency dictates we include Orc, I think we should. [mention]Chris Perkins[\mention] Can you make the proposed edits to the ability/name of the army card/thread? If we are all on board with that miniature then we could also have someone do a mock up of the card since we appear to be entering into a "finalization" or a "test this thing" soon kind of state. And yes, I created an internal checklist. Looks like I'll probably have the motivation to learn to be our checklist guy so I added some more qualifiers to it. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
OP updated. I think I captured all the changes, but if you notice any I missed let me know and I'll update the OP again.
I made one small change that we had not previously discussed - I switched the height from 5? to 4. I think orcs (and moria orcs especially) are a bit shorter in general. I don't know how tall the miniature that @capsocrates found is, so if it's drastically different from a 'scape 4 let me know and I'll update the height in the OP. I made the name "Deep Drummer Orc" - we had what appeared to be a 2-1 vote against inclusion of "Moria" in the name, with @capsocrates wanting it but @Shiftrex and myself not. If we end up changing our minds here I'll update the name but this is where I arrived at the current version from. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I won't fight about including Moria in the name.
A few more things I noticed looking at the OP. "an other" should be "another." We should definitely change the personality; no need for these guys to bond with Death Chasers IMO. Shouldn't it be "Orc Deep Drummer" and not "Deep Drummer Orc"? Maybe the class should just be "Drummer" since "War" is not in the name anymore? I would also be okay with something less specific like Warrior but I will defer to the two of you. Can we get the thread title updated? It is nice to use the second post of the thread to track the different versions of the design. Somewhere in the first or second thread we should have a list to the two checklists. Speaking of the checklists, @Shiftrex do you want to put that checklist in a central place? Either its own thread or in one of the "general purpose" threads? Maybe the design thread? And should we add a question about height? It seems we are preferring the "thematic" height of a figure over the figure's real-life physical height, which is fine with me; I think we should add a checklist item to address that. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
It definitely should be another, I changed that in my editing post under the assumption that would be our OP update.
I'm neutral about a personality change. I don't care if they bond with death chasers or not, I doubt these figures will be competitive at all outside of an Orc based army so I would just shrug off a small synergy like that. Either naming convention is fine, having Orc come first places more emphasis on the racial component of the figure while having it come after places more emphasis on the profession of the unit. There isn't a wrong answer, I feel that both are grammatically fine. If I had to vote I'd put Orc before Deep Drummer in the naming convention. Central place? I guess I can. Didn't see a purpose, I just copy/paste it each time and I assume that I'm going to be doing most of the checklists. OR are you just meaning my addition to it? :U clarity is required on my part. Drummer is fine as a class, the Moria Orcs were not quite as organized for war as the Mordor Orcs. I am against adding a question about height, we should always keep in line with the figure's actual height otherwise we are breaking a fundamental rule of heroscape. The size stat has always been the actual SIZE of the figure as far as I understand it. |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
You won't necessarily be always doing the checklists. It is nice to have a "master list" that we copy from and can add things to and discuss separate from any one unit.
If we want to base it on the actual height, we can't decide on heights for sure until we buy the "official" mini. We are in uncharted territory here, where most players will use proxies rather than the "official" figure, and the official figure may often be a bit of a mismatch against the lore. This is why I would rather go with a lore-based number instead of a figure-based number. We need to have a question about height regardless of what our philosophy is. :) |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
For the personality, how about "fearsome"? The drums certainly put fear in anyone who heard them in Moria.
I changed the name to "Orc Deep Drummer" (Orc first) - I agree with capsocrates on that one because other names make sense with that pattern, i.e. "Orcs of Moria". And I changed the class to "Drummer". Regarding renaming the thread - how do I do that? Never done it before on the forums here. And I'm not entirely sure how you track versions using the second post - are you suggesting I keep the version before the current there, or a complete history of the major versions of the card? |
Re: The Workbook of Moria War Drummer - Design (Fellowship A
I just like to quote the OP and then copy paste that into a spoiler in the second post. Like a snapshot.
To change the thread title just edit the OP and "Go Advanced" then look towards the top. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
Got it - thread title should be updated with the new name of the figure.
I'll try to remember to quote the OP into the second post before I edit it next time to start the snapshots. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
Awesome, I'm happy with the name change and the personality change. What is up next?
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Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
I think I can get behind Fearsome for the personality. Wild just does not feel right.
Can we call the first power DRUMS IN THE DEEP ? And the second power DOOM, BOOM ? Actually, as I was writing this I realized this power is really "Orc Supremacy." And then I got to thinking... I think we need to word this power differently to deal with some ambiguity we created by making the card Common. Something like: Anytime you roll the 20-sided die for an Orc Army Card, you may add 1 to your roll for each Orc Deep Drummer you control. Orc Deep Drummers are affected by Doom, Boom.And just live with each Drummer boosting his own roll. --- C3V would have had a "review" by now where they open up the design for comment by the other members. I don't think we've made significant enough changes to the design to make that necessary, but sometimes extra eyes catch things we might otherwise not. Do y'all want to ask for comment? It is usually timed: open up the thread for like 72 hours for anyone to say their peace, then collect the feedback at the end and decide if anything needs to be done about it. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
I'm a fan of all those ideas.
I updated the OP with: Personality: Fearsome (no bonding with any figure that I'm aware of) Re-named first power to "Drums in the Deep" Re-named second power to "Orc Supremacy". I went with this over "Doom, Boom" because we likely will re-use it on some other orcs and the common name is good. Re-worded "Orc Supremacy" with capsocrates. Put the previous version in the 2nd post under a spoiler tag for version control. I'll go ahead and post in the general chat that this figure is ready for review with the 72 hour info, I think that's a good standard to create for all these cards. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
Awesome. Seems great ^^ I'm hood with everything to include the review but I'm not sure how much feedback we will get. Hope we get some views.
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Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
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If we are agreed on using that Orc Wardrummer figure we should also get it in the OP. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
I think it's strange to make a power for a figure that boost the 20 sided die roll of another power for that figure. That "Roll 1-3" is very deceptive, since it's really 1-2. And I'd prefer so say Roll "20 or higher".
Having said those things, I understand there is probably precedence for it. And I have no other issues with the drummers moving on to playtesting. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
That's a good point, its wonky and could lead to confusion.
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Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
WK brought up some good points. We need to change the "20" to "20 or higher" for sure.
If we don't want them to modify their own powers we'll need to scrap them boosting each other altogether. There's no meaningful way to distinguish between them without making the wording more complex IMO. The power is still called ORC SUPREMACY even though it is slightly different from other Supremacy powers, so we need to change that. I am still okay with DOOM, BOOM, but we could go for something like ORC LUCK ENHANCEMENT or something like that. What are y'all's thoughts, @Shiftrex , @Chris Perkins ? |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
Sorry for the delay.
I've updated the OP to have the following changes: 1) "Orc Supremacy" was changed to "Orc Luck Enhancement". I like something more generic like this over "Doom, Boom" so it has more future re-use potential. 2) I changed "20" to "20 or higher". Regarding boosting each other, I think this is necessary if they are a common hero - if they can't boost each other, they should be a 1 life unique hero (i.e. Isamu, Otonashi). There needs to be some reason to take a 2nd copy of a common figure, in my view (whereas here it's virtually useless). What about changing the wording to be: "Anytime you roll the 20-sided die for an Orc Army Card, you may add 1 to your roll for every Orc Deep Drummer you control. An Orc Deep Drummer cannot increase his own D20 roll." Thoughts on that wording? |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
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I am pretty sure the solution is they they either boost themselves or ALL Orc Deep Drummers are immune to the effect. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
The comparison to the squad is a good point, hadn't considered wording from that frame of reference before.
What about moving him back to an uncommon hero with 2 lives? I'm just hesitant to introduce a common hero where bringing a second copy of the card gives ~ 0 benefit. I think I'd rather see it as either a unique hero with one life or an uncommon hero with 2 lives rather than a common hero where you'll never bring more than one of him in an army. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
I am okay with the Unique Hero route.
But I'm not opposed to just starting with +1 per Orc Deep Drummer seeing how it goes in playtesting. We also have the option of them *only* boosting other d20 powers like Chomp and Orc Violence. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
Ok, give this discussion I'm in favor of starting with +1 per Orc Deep Drummer and then keeping unique hero as a backup option if it goes poorly in play-testing.
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Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
What are your thoughts,
@Shiftrex
?
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Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
Thematically I like the direction of +1 per Orc Deep Drummer. I always like to work from thematic or capturing what we want to represent and War Drums just strike me as being more effective in droves.
My secondary thought would be an Uncommon hero with 2/3 lives that boosts all "OTHER" d20 powers. I would fall back on Unique Hero as a last resort just because the figure isn't named and I don't think the project is really keen to the idea of creating plausible characters and putting names on them which kinda goes hand in hand with the "Unique Hero" tag for me. |
Re: The Workbook of Orc Deep Drummer - Design (Fellowship A)
This is our OP right now. It may be overpriced. Let's make a final decision on Doom, Boom vs. Orc Luck Enhancement. I definitely prefer the former. "Luck Enhancement" doesn't make sense. If Heroscape used "d20" I could see "Orc d20 Enhancement" but "Orc Twenty-Sided Die Enhancement" is just too much.
@Chris Perkins @Shiftrex Quote:
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