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-   -   Diplomacy (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=53767)

wriggz November 1st, 2017 05:27 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2167179)
Wriggz, in Diplomacy, don't trust anyone. At least, not based on "trust" alone. In one article about Diplomacy, my friend Andy Bartalone was quoted:
Quote:

Andy Bartalone, a Potomac Tea & Knife Society stalwart from Bowie, says of one friend, "I would trust him with the payoff mortgage on my house -- in cash. But I wouldn't trust him to stay out of Belgium."
The key is, you have to work with people you don't trust, but you have to discuss common goals and work toward them anyway. I wrote at some length above about how an Italian might not "trust" Austria not to take VEN in S1901M, but the Italian might still be able to persuade Austria not to take Venice by persuading Austria that it's not in his interest to do so. The point is not to trust someone to give you charity, the point is to trust someone to do something in the person's own self interest. Because they are doing things in their own self interest, sometimes they will do things with you, and sometimes they will do things that you can take advantage of for your own benefit.

Does that make sense? It's an important distinction. So, if you're getting messages from someone you don't "trust," but the person is still making an argument that's relevant and is something that might be important for you to know, you might benefit from listening. It's not someone else's fault that you didn't see the writing on the wall, when they tried to warn you and it was right there.

Yes of course trust is a strong word.

I took this game to be a fine example of game theory. Knowing what I know that my opponants knows. But of course there is a gut feeling that something seems off sometimps and even if all logic imply your opponent do one thing they do another.

For example I felt like austria was going to stab me but logically that didn't seem like the smartest move to me so I opted to trust them. My gut was correCT and my brain was wrong.

In reality France didn't have much to offer me from my point of view but also there something in the gut that made me believe they were more opportunistic then the eog summary imply ed. It is that dissonance that rancor may have felt here and in his Con.

kevindola November 1st, 2017 05:30 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
That's why I stabbed at the gut first. It knew too much

Kinseth November 1st, 2017 06:54 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kevindola (Post 2167197)
That's why I stabbed at the gut first. It knew too much

Gutpunch!

dok November 1st, 2017 10:13 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2167172)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2167171)
Oy, you guys are struggling to follow instructions.

1. Kinseth
2. Wriggz
3. Vegie
4. Dok
5. Kevindola
6. Ranior
7. quozl
8. AYP

Dok is ranked too high!

Everyone here is a solid B+.

wriggz November 1st, 2017 11:09 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 2167261)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2167172)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2167171)
Oy, you guys are struggling to follow instructions.

1. Kinseth
2. Wriggz
3. Vegie
4. Dok
5. Kevindola
6. Ranior
7. quozl
8. AYP

Dok is ranked too high!

Everyone here is a solid B+.

That seems like power creep. Better get a few lower ranked people to balance it out. however all the example I can think of have been banned.

Dad_Scaper November 2nd, 2017 12:08 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
My plan right now is to let this stew for a couple of days and see who else wants to sign up.

Ranior November 7th, 2017 12:37 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Alright, I'm finally getting around to finishing up my end of game thoughts. I've never quite covered my decisions in the early part of the game, so here goes:


At the outset of this game I was trying to find someone to work with closely. Last game as Austria I thought I had found such a person but communications broke down with Italy and Turkey betrayed me. This time around I was being much more forthright with my expectations and desires of an ally. I reached out to mostly to Germany and England to get a sense for how things would develop in our part of the world. I paid a bit of attention to Italy and Russia since we could reasonably interact, but Austria and Turkey I didn't do much with beyond exchange a few words.

As for the northern powers, I first asked if they would like to engage in a triple alliance. I haven't seen anyone try a triple alliance of England/France/Germany in awhile and was curious to see what the thoughts would be. However both of my neighbors were not interested and told me so via group messages. This made it clear to me that they both had no intentions of keeping things peaceful between the three of us for long, so I immediately shifted to trying to figure out who to ally with to take out the other, fearing that the reason they both rebuffed my prior plan was because they intended to end me.

In my conversations it quickly became apparent that England was the type of player I could work with much easier than Germany. Germany was largely unwilling to commit to anything, was fairly withdrawn in communication unwilling to open up, and wasn't very timely or communicative. As is well known by now, I type a lot and prefer to have lengthy communication partners that like to discuss as much as I do. Germany was not that type of fellow. So despite the fact that as France I generally prefer to work with Germany than England, this game it was clear to me that the player of France was going to be much more amenable to the way I preferred to operate. (As for why I prefer working with Germany, I'd rather not have a naval superpower building right to the north of me. As France working with England, England tends to have the power to stab you whereas France rarely has the power to stab England. It takes careful negotiation and positioning to be able to trust the English not to turn their fleets against France after they've gained everything they can in the north with them. Working with Germany tends to be better, if anything France tends to have a bit of an edge there)

Still, England was a great ally. They were communicative, they were open, they were willing to discuss concerns and hopes openly and honestly. Again I wouldn't go far as to say I ever fully trusted the guy, but I felt he was being generally honest with me and I understood his motivations and desires and felt I could trust him to always do whatever was best for him, and I tried to make sure the position was always such that he would rather work with me than against me. (And this generally worked until the very end when I suspected he would start to turn on me and did. Alas, I do not fault him as it was probably the right play for him)

I was very hopeful around 1902 that Germany was going to fall very fast. I was thinking this could quickly lead to an England/France force marching across the board before the others could gather quick enough to stop us. The south looked a mess with Italy not being able to do much, and I had thought Turkey/Russia/Austria were going to take several seasons to work everything out. By that time I figured England and I would be in a dominant position--we would have eliminated Germany, and England could work on forcing those northern Russia centers to be theirs while I could easily crush Italy with the added help of some ground armies coming from Munich. I was hoping Austria was going to be having enough troubles with its neighbors that it wouldn't be able to come to Italy's aid. I still think this game was pretty close to falling into this situation and England and I would have essentially been able to force what Russia just did. I'm not sure how the ending would have gone in that one, but it would have at least given me more chances that what ended up happening.

But alas, things quickly started turning late 1902 and early 1903 to the point where I began to really fear that Austria/Russia had managed to do what we were hoping to, only they were a bit quicker! And indeed they were just a move or so ahead of us and were able to prop up the Germans just in time to prevent England and I from gaining the centers we were going to. This to me was THE critical part of the early game as it prevented England and I from growing large enough (I think there were some lines of play that could have lead to a four way draw where England/France and Russia/Austria basically would have stalemated. Not sure on this but it seemed possible for a little bit). But instead Russia and Austria somehow managed to convince Italy to essentially do their bidding while Germany had a single minded rage to ensure we suffered. (Can't entirely blame him as he had no other options but revenge).

It was around 1903-1904 that England and I agreed that if Italy wasn't going to be joining us that we had to get Austria to join us then. I thought Russia was in a dominant position and would be happy with the status quo, or worse if I turned on England as Russia was goading me to do, Russia would have just won even sooner.

Around this point is where we basically get into all my earlier writing where I've more than detailed my frustrations. But to quickly summarize the end game largely was me getting annoyed that Italy and Austria didn't seem to be making moves that actually benefited themselves as much as they benefited someone else and it baffled me. Italy was working with Austria, when I struggle to point to anything Austria did for Italy (alright, fine they let them rent Trieste for one turn). I was offering all sorts of deals to Italy that could have seen them actual growth, instead they seemed content to stay stagnant with their home centers and Tunis, peacefully letting Austria reclaim Trieste, and just bashed their forces against my fleets waiting for Austria to finally gut them.

Austria seemed content to think that they were getting and even deal with Russia despite the fact that Russia had much greater expansion opportunities in the north and was better positioned to stab Austria's centers. Austria was going to stagnate quickly when coming against the French fleets and it would take them quite awhile to gain dominance of the southern seas. During this time it became increasingly apparent to me that Russia would claim dominance of the northern seas shortly, and once that happened Russia could force gains upon many centers. Yet Austria would never turn on his ally.

With all that in mind I essentially quit by the end as all my energy and care was out of the game. The ending seemed clear to me, but despite me asserting Russia was going to win, Austria was never swayed. (And we've covered that enough already I won't dwell on it). I do somewhat regret not reaching out to Austria right before the end and pointing out explicitly how close Russia was to winning. I saw the moves he could take to get to 17 with a low shot at 18, although I missed exactly how good his odds of hitting 18 actually were. Still I wonder if I had reached out to Austria quickly enough if we wouldn't have been able to band together as an England/France/Austria alliance to turn the game around. Alas I had checked out though and was ready for the loss. But I do think I may have missed my final chance there to make something of the game.

Which just goes to show you that you can always come back in this game no matter how bleak things look. It's a fascinating game that still enthralls me and I look forward to playing some more. (I also look forward to getting some greater success....these two games have not gone very well for me!).

kevindola November 14th, 2017 09:24 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2167276)
My plan right now is to let this stew for a couple of days and see who else wants to sign up.

Looks like the stewing has lasted a couple of weeks. Are we ready to initiate signups or do the holidays complicate things?

wriggz November 14th, 2017 09:35 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I'm cool to start (we already had our thanksgiving up here).

However I think we should preface this game with a "December Claus" as in Santa is coming so people should feel free to request delays as needed, with an expected shut down on the week of the 25th. I know many people have time off at Christmas, but I feel like that should be time dedicated to family and friends, not trying to take over Europe circa 1902.

Kinseth November 14th, 2017 10:15 AM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I am okay with starting, and around Thanksgiving & Christmas, probably put a request for longer deadline.

Ranior November 14th, 2017 01:23 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wriggz (Post 2168417)
I know many people have time off at Christmas, but I feel like that should be time dedicated to family and friends, not trying to take over Europe circa 1902.

Haha, this made me chuckle, thanks.

I'm good with starting, but agree longer deadlines will be needed during the holiday times. I'll be without internet Thanksgiving for sure, and then during Dec 23-26th I'll be fairly busy as well. It sounds like most agree so we'll just need to extend deadlines around those.

Looking forward to playing again.

Dad_Scaper November 14th, 2017 01:28 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Don't worry about deadlines during the holidays. I'll move them as needed, and if you want something in particular just ask.

Bear in mind that I do not promise in advance to grant all requests, so don't save them for the last minute. Also, this last game was plagued with late orders, and I will be more firm in the next game to make sure that the game is not needlessly delayed. You take the fate of your power in your hands when you are late; I might do something drastic.

We have 8 people on the list. Is there someone who has played in both games already who will volunteer to sit this one out? If you don't want to be that volunteer then don't be. I'm just asking if there is someone who wants to. If not, I'll move on to some other way to shorten the list to 7.


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