- - The Book of Beyonder
(https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34744)
GreyOwl
February 26th, 2011 09:00 AM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
This passes on time (yesterday actually).
IAmBatman
February 26th, 2011 12:22 PM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
Cool. Should we just post this one publicly and ask for like three tests straight up and then have Heroes supplement as necessary? I think this guy needs a minimum of three tests ... or are we trying to keep him hush hush, in which case we should just pm select testers and ask them directly?
SirGalahad
February 26th, 2011 12:27 PM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
He already put it out there.
IAmBatman
February 26th, 2011 12:49 PM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
Yeah, I realized that after posting this. :-P I made it clear on there that we need at least three playtests for this, though. It'd also be nice if at least one more hero could look at this guy.
Hahma
February 26th, 2011 12:59 PM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
I can take him out for a spin, but it will take a little time to complete.
GreyOwl
February 26th, 2011 01:17 PM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirGalahad
(Post 1351483)
He already put it out there.
But I've only PM'd it to Good Pig so far, so if we want to keep it to sanctum members, we still have that option. Just let me know, I'll hold off before I send it to anyone else.
IAmBatman
February 26th, 2011 04:18 PM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
Nah, I think it's out there now, so might as well let those who signed up test it. :-) I think for this guy, it's really the more the merrier.
GreyOwl
February 26th, 2011 06:13 PM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
Okay, sending off to Lord Esenwein then...
GreyOwl
February 28th, 2011 12:15 AM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
First playtest result:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEsenwienIV
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Beyonder
- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them. Pass
- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game. Pass
- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding. Pass
- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak. Pass
- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any. Pass
- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play. Pass
- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against. Pass
- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting. Pass I was a bit concerned about this and how if you had a 2500 point game if you would actually want to use all your points on one figure. Just my opinion personally.:shrug:
- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable. Pass
- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game. Pass
- Army Test/ Does it pass, Yes or No? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary.Pass
Map: Fire Isles
Units: Anti-Monitor, Thor and Darkseid (2510) vs. Beyonder (2500)
Spoiler Alert!
Round 1 Beyonder Initiative
Beyonder flies into Molten Lava then receives 4 wounds from Lava Damage and then summons Thor to his hot lava death, Loss of Turn, Darkseid goes down as Thor did and Beyonder now has 8 wounds on him, Loss of turn, Beyonder moves out of Anti-Monitor's rangeor does he? Anti-Monitor advances and then uses Master of Space to give 3 wounds to Beyonder. No lava damage. Round 2 Anti-Monitor Initiative
Master of Time takes away Beyonder's turn 2 and then a great Roll by AM gives 5 wounds to Beyonder, 3 wounds on AM, Beyonder takes 3 wounds, Loss of turn, Def. whiff by Beyonder gives him 4 more wounds, Beyonder can barely get wounds on AM but he does manage 1. Lava Damage to both. Team Anti-Monitor wins R5T1 with a 10 life AM.
This game continued and it came really down to luck of the die roll. Beyonder's rolls were terrible and all the Initiative wins by AM and Master of Time just ruined Beyonder's life.
- Army Test/ Does it pass, Yes or No? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary..
Map: Fire Isles
Units: Wolverine, Professor X, Sinestro Corps Soldiers x6, Beast, Toad, Deadpool, Magneto, Colossus, Blob, Cyclops and Iceman (2665) vs. Beyonder and Count Vertigo (2660)
Spoiler Alert!
This was probably one of the most fun games I've played in a LOOOONG time. Beyonder used all his special powers to take down the Mutants but in the end it wasn't enough. Team Mutant wins R6T1 with a full life Cyclops and 4 Sinestro Corps Soldiers.
All in all I had a really fun time playtesting Beyonder. One thing I would say is to change the rolls for Mere Pawns to:
If you roll 1-11, choose any Unique Hero you control.
If you roll 12-19, choose one Unique Hero within 10 clear sight spaces.
If you roll 20 or higher, choose up to three Unique Heroes within 10 clear sight spaces.
Also for Supreme Summoning can you summon people when you are engaged? Same for Mere Pawns? He's great against high life, high defense, high point heroes on Lava Maps so I think I'll go with:
Pass at 2500 with lower numbers for Mere Pawns but 2400 with your wording.
GreyOwl
March 1st, 2011 12:06 AM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - Playtesting
Second playtest:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good Pig
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Beyonder
- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them. Not too familiar with the character. Just did a basic wiki search. I guess for an all powerful being nothing seemed out of place.
- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game. PASS
- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding. PASS
- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak. PASS
- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any. FAIL. Supreme Summoning on to a lava space has to be broken even with the new rules. I didn't end up running a match on a lava map, but I can only imagine based on my pretty balanced matches on non-lava maps.
- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play. FAIL. There are 2 things about this guy that I don't like. 1.Mere Pawns bullet point number one says take a turn with any unique hero you control. I'm already using a 2,500 point figure in my army, but now have to bring along someone else on my team to make sure I get full use of one of his main abilities? This doesn't make sense to me. A 2,500 point figure should be a stand alone army in itself. This guy will almost always have to be paired with Grundy and or Thanos to get the most use out of him or using Mere Pawns is a big risk. 2.This one is a minor issue. Supreme Summoning seems to be too reliant on terrain. Professor X can hide behind a tree and still use his Mind Link, but Beyonder needs clear sight to use his Summoning. Granted it has unlimited range, but it seemed odd to me.
- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against. FAIL. Having 40 life means that it's going to take roughly 15+ rounds, easily twice the amount of time as a regular match, to complete a game against Beyonder. At first I thought it would be kind of fun to draft all of the X-Men and Brotherhood to take this guy on, but then realized it wasn't that fun because it takes too long to finish the game. The power level may be accurate here, but it doesn't make for a fun game.
- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting. PASS. I think he is worth his points, but I wouldn't use him.
- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable. PASS
- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game. PASS. When you're using him you have to figure out what the best use of his summon and Mere Pawns is at any given point. This means you have to fully remember each Hero's card and what it does because of the potential to use it. I only got the 20+ roll to use any 3 heroes once in both games and it was at the very end so there were slim pickins'.
- Army Test/ Does it pass, Yes or No? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary.This passes at 2,500
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Team 1: Beyonder, Solomon Grundy 2,780 pts
Team 2: Angel, Scarlet Witch, Prof X, Strong Guy, Jean Grey, Deadpool, Blob, Wolverine, Colossus, Sabretooth, Magneto, Cyclops 2,770 pts
Team 1 wins in Round 15 Turn 3 with Beyonder having 5 life left, and Grundy with 2 life left. Team 2 won initiative almost the entire game, but still lost.
Spoiler Alert!
R1 Jean and Blob move up. Grundy moves in to engage. Cyclops and Deadpool position themselves. Grundy engages Blob and gives him 2 wounds. Jean attacks Grundy for a wound and Sabretooth takes him out with his special attack. Team 1 loses OM 3 for Grundy.
R2 Angel carries Prof up and Blob moves up. Beyonder flies up and summons Jean. Scarlet Witch curses Beyonder. Jean tries to throw him. Grundy comes back on swamp at full health. Beyonder uses Grundy to attack Jean, blocked. Jean throws Grundy at Blob. Colossus throws Wolverine at Grundy for a wound. Beyonder uses Grundy to put 4 wounds on Wolverine.
R3 Beyonder summons Wolv attacks him for a wound. Angel flies him to safety. Wolv puts a wound on Grundy. Colossus throws Sabretooth at Grundy for a wound. Beyonder uses Grundy to attack Blob. Blob disengages and attacks Beyonder giving him 2 wounds. Beyonder summons Magneto and attacks and kills Wolverine. Jean throws Beyonder to low ground. Colossus kills Grundy.
R4 Deadpool puts 2 wounds on Beyonder. Beyonder is cursed, he attacks Blob and gives him 2 wounds. Angel moves Blob to height. Colossus puts 3 wounds on Beyonder. Grundy is back again, Beyonder is cursed but he uses his attack on Blob and kills him. Deadpool puts a wound on Beyonder, Colossus gives him 2. Jean prevents summoning with her grip, Beyonder attacks Colossus and it's blocked.
R5 Deadpool gives Beyonder a wound. Sabretooth disengages takes 2 wounds and uses special on Grundy. Beyonder is cursed, attacks Angel and is blocked. Deadpool gives Beyonder 2 wounds. Sabretooth attacks and is blocked. Beyonder disengages takes 2 wounds, and summons Prof X, attack is blocked by Psychic Def. Jean Gray gives Beyonder a wound. Angel carries Prof out of engagement. Beyonder gives Prof a wound, and Angel flies Prof away.
R6 Beyonder uses Grundy to attack Prof and blocked by Psychic Def. Angel flies Prof behind tree cover. Jean gives Beyonder a wound. Beyonder switches Prof and Scarlet Witch and kills Prof. Team 2 loses a turn. Beyonder uses Grundy to attack Sabretooth, and Angel carries Sabretooth away. Team 2 loses a turn.
R7 Cyclops uses Jean to throw Beyonder. Beyonder attacks Jean and gives her a wound. Sabretooth puts 2 wounds on Beyonder. Beyonder uses Deadpool to attack Angel for a wound and he flies away. Deadpool gives Beyonder a wound. Beyonder is cursed, he gives Sabretooth a wound.
R8 Sabretooth attacks Beyonder and is blocked. Beyonder uses Grundy to give Deadpool 3 wounds. Sabretooth attacks Beyonder and is blocked. Beyonder cursed again, attacks Sabretooth for a wound. Magneto attacks Beyonder for 1 wound. Beyonder attacks Sabretooth for a wound.
R9 Sabretooth attacks Beyonder and biffs. Beyonder uses Grundy to attack and is blocked. Cyclops uses Jean to move up. Beyonder is cursed, he attacks and kills Sabretooth. Team 2 loses turn. Beyonder uses Grundy to kill Deadpool.
R10 Colossus attacks Beyonder and is blocked. Beyonder attacks Colossus for 2 wounds. Cyclops uses Jean to throw Beyonder. Beyonder is cursed, Psionic Grip prevents him from moving. Magneto attacks Beyonder for 1 wound. Beyonder is cursed, Psionic Grip prevents him from moving.
R11 Jean throws Grundy. Beyonder summons Jean to him and kills her. Magneto puts 3 wounds on Beyonder. Beyonder summons Cyclops to him and kills him. Magneto attacks Beyonder, blocked. Beyonder summons Magneto gives him a wound.
R12 Beyonder attacks Magneto, blocked. Mags throws Beyonder for a wound. Beyonder switches Colossus with Magneto, kills Magneto. Team 2 loses a turn. Beyonder summons Colossus, attack is blocked. Colossus attacks Beyonder for 2 wounds.
R13 Colossus attacks Beyonder and is blocked. Beyonder switches Colossus with Angel and gives Angel 2 wounds, then he flies away. Colossus moves up. Beyonder summons Angel and kills him. Colossus moves up. Beyonder attacks Colossus and gives him 2 wounds.
R14 Colossus attacks Beyonder for a wound. Beyonder attacks Colossus, blocked. Colossus attacks Beyonder for a wound. Beyonder attacks Colossus, blocked. Strong Guy moves up. Beyonder kills Colossus.
R15 Beyonder gets a 20 roll on Mere Pawns, uses Grundy to attack Scarlet Witch for 1 wound, Scarlet Witch attacks Strong Guy for 2 wounds, Strong Guy attacks Scarlet Witch, blocked. Strong Guy attacks Beyonder and gives him 4 wounds. Beyonder kills Scarlet Witch. Team 2 loses a turn. Beyonder kills Strong Guy.
- Army Test/ Does it pass, Yes or No? What should be the unit's point value? Give a brief summary.This passes at 2,500
Map: Grundy's Grave
Units: Team 1: Beyonder, Solomon Grundy 2,780 pts
Team 2: Green Lantern (Hal), Darkseid, Scarlet Witch, Martian Manhunter, Iron Man, Superman, Hulk, Invisible Woman, Captain America 2,760 pts
Team 2 wins in Round 15 Turn 2 with 3 life Superman, 2 life Scarlet Witch and full health Iron Man. Darkseid almost single handedly took down Beyonder. He gave him 25 wounds in 2 rounds with incredible attack rolls and poor defense rolls for Beyonder. Everything else went pretty average.
Spoiler Alert!
R1 MM moves up. Grundy moves up. MM attacks Grundy and is blocked. Grundy puts 2 wounds on MM. Darkseid Omega Beams Grundy for 2 wounds. Grundy puts 3 wounds on MM.
R2 MM retreats. Grundy pursues! Darkseid fails to Omega Grundy and takes a wound. Beyonder uses Darkseid to attack Invisible Woman and gives her 4 wounds. Darkseid Omegas Grundy for a wound. Beyonder uses Grundy to kill MM.
R3 Beyonder summons Hal, attacks and Hal burns a marker. Darkseid kills Grundy. Beyonder attacks Hal and it's blocked. Darkseid Omega Beams Beyonder for 2 wounds. Grundy is back. Beyonder attacks Hal, blocked. Darkseid kills Grundy.
R4 Beyonder attacks Hall, burns a marker. Scarlet Witch moves in curses Beyonder. Beyonder uses Grundy to attack Hal, gives him 3 wounds. Cap uses Shield Throw and blocked by both. Beyonder attacks Hal, burns a marker. Hal attacks Beyonder and is blocked.
R5 Darkseid kills Grundy. Beyonder cursed, attacks Hal, burns marker. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 2 wounds. Beyonder kills Hal. Hulk Super Leaps to engage Beyonder. Beyonder puts a wound on Scarlet Witch.
R6 Beyonder summons Cap, attack is blocked. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 2 wounds. Beyonder attacks Cap and is blocked. Darkseid attacks Beyonder, blocked. Beyonder brings Grundy back, attacks Cap and takes 3 wounds from Counterstrike. Hulk attacks Beyonder for 3 wounds.
R7 Darkseid gives Beyonder a wound. Beyonder is cursed, gives Cap a wound. Darkseid attacks Beyonder, blocked. Beyonder uses Grundy to attack Darkseid, blocked. Darkseid attacks Beyonder, blocked. Beyonder is cursed, attacks Cap for 2 wounds.
R8 Beyonder uses Grundy to attack Cap for a wound. Invisible Woman moves up to give aura to friendlies. Beyonder is cursed, kills Cap. Darkseid attacks Beyonder and is blocked. Beyonder is cursed, attacks Darkseid and is blocked. Darkseid attacks Beyonder and is blocked.
R9 Beyonder is cursed, attacks Darkseid and blocked. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 4 wounds! Beyonder uses Grundy to kill Invisible Woman. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 5 wounds! Beyonder summons Darkseid to low ground and attacks him for a wound. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 5 wounds! (14 total wounds from Darkseid this round)
R10 Beyonder is cursed, attacks Hulk and gives him 4 wounds. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 4 wounds! Beyonder is cursed, attacks Hulk and is blocked. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 4 wounds! Beyonder is cursed, gives Hulk 3 more wounds. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 3 wounds. (11 wounds this round from Darkseid!)
R11 Beyonder uses Darkseid to kill Hulk. Team 2 loses turn. Beyonder uses Grundy to attack Darkseid, blocked. Darkseid attacks Beyonder, blocked. Beyonder is cursed, attacks Darkseid and is blocked. Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 1 wound.
R12 Darkseid attacks Beyonder for 1 wound. Beyonder is cursed, attacks Darkseid for 2 wounds. Darkseid attacks Beyonder and is blocked. Beyonder uses Grundy to kill Darkseid. Team 2 loses a turn. Beyonder puts a wound on Scarlet Witch.
R13 Beyonder attacks Scarlet Witch, blocked. Superman moves up. Beyonder switches Scarlet Witch and Sups and gives Sups a wound. Superman attacks Beyonder, blocked. Beyonder cursed, attacks Sups and is blocked. Superman attacks Beyonder, blocked.
R14 Sups gives Beyonder a wound. Beyonder is cursed, gives Sups 3 wounds. Sups kills Beyonder! Lost turn for team 1. Sups attacks Grundy and is blocked. Grundy attacks Sups and is blocked.
R15 Sups puts a wound on Grundy. Grundy attacks Sups and is blocked. Superman kills Grundy!
IAmBatman
March 1st, 2011 12:34 AM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - Playtesting
Well it sounds like the points are fine, so I won't bother addressing that.
Quote:
FAIL. Supreme Summoning on to a lava space has to be broken even with the new rules. I didn't end up running a match on a lava map, but I can only imagine based on my pretty balanced matches on non-lava maps.
I maintain that he can be counter drafted effectively on a lava map.
Quote:
- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
FAIL. There are 2 things about this guy that I don't like.
1.Mere Pawns bullet point number one says take a turn with “any unique hero you control”. I'm already using a 2,500 point figure in my army, but now have to bring along someone else on my team to make sure I get full use of one of his main abilities? This doesn't make sense to me. A 2,500 point figure should be a stand alone army in itself. This guy will almost always have to be paired with Grundy and or Thanos to get the most use out of him or using Mere Pawns is a big risk.
I really don't think the ability to move a figure he controls is a significant part of his cost, so I disagree here. I think he'd be worth 2500 points if that aspect were dropped all together.
Quote:
2.This one is a minor issue. Supreme Summoning seems to be too reliant on terrain. Professor X can hide behind a tree and still use his Mind Link, but Beyonder needs clear sight to use his Summoning. Granted it has unlimited range, but it seemed odd to me.
Obviously this was done for purposes of game balance ... And I don't mind the theme either, as Prof X is using his telepathy to avoid needing clear sight.
Quote:
- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
FAIL. Having 40 life means that it's going to take roughly 15+ rounds, easily twice the amount of time as a regular match, to complete a game against Beyonder. At first I thought it would be kind of fun to draft all of the X-Men and Brotherhood to take this guy on, but then realized it wasn't that fun because it takes too long to finish the game. The power level may be accurate here, but it doesn't make for a fun game.
Honestly, I think 2500 points is probably beyond where I find the game to be fun, but I do think it's thematically accurate for Beyonder and it's hard to imagine doing him too much cheaper.
We could, of course, but it'd require so major toning down of some of his powers, IMO, as well as a dropping of life.
IAmBatman
March 1st, 2011 01:01 AM
Re: The Book of Beyonder - Playtesting
Talking with GoodPig on Skype and we agree a nice tweak might be to change the high roll on Mere Pawns from controlling three figures to controlling two figures, but make it hit on 18+.
And then change a roll fail so it doesn't cost him the turn:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodPig
1-11, take turn with Beyonder as normal, 12-17 take turn with any figure, 18+ take turn with any 2 figures
