Heroscapers - AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

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AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

Straight up stealing from this thread, read the basic idea there:

Heroscape Power Rankings

A few differences/things to note.

1. This is just one guy’s opinion. If it generates chatter I have no problem updating this with a consensus. And hopefully it does, I’m a big fan of this game.
2. I thought it made more sense to organize the list by card color rather than by rank. You’re more limited in your squad choices based on the PW you choose compared to Heroscape. Planeswalkers are at the top of each color. Within the colors the cards are sorted by rank, then cost, then alphabetically.
3. For the army cards, I’m going to attempt to incorporate the What’s in an order marker? color code. It doesn’t apply 100% simply because there are no order markers in AotP. But you still have to choose a card at the beginning of your turn and this could help with the choice. And like the above, input will be appreciated and incorporated.
4. Rankings of army cards are not taking spells into consideration, this is just ranking the army cards. You could easily take a group like the Phoenixes and turn them into an endless wave of 5 dice attacks, but you can boost every team in various ways with spells. I’m just talking about base value.
5. Based on some feedback, rankings where adjusted a bit, and 2 color PWs are included twice, once for each color.
6. I’ve ranked all the spell cards as well. They’re sorted in the same way, color->rank->cost->alphabetical.

Army Cards

Spoiler Alert!

Spell Cards

Spoiler Alert!

I think I got every card in the game, but let me know if I missed any. The format of the spells list is tough to read so I’m trying to figure that out, any ideas on how to make it look pretty would be appreciated too

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Draft

I personally haven't played Arena of the Planeswalkers, but I think that Power Rankings like this generate discussion and can strengthen the community (just look at how much talk has resulted from the classic lists). Unfortunately, I can't contribute much here (mostly due to my lack of experience with the game), but from what I do understand, I think that the power levels of these units will be subject to much more variation than classic HeroScape units on account of the different Planeswalkers and spells.

I feel like it would make sense to also rank each of the spell cards. I'm sure that there are spells that can make weaker squads stronger and the like, and since the cards are already included in the army-building process, it makes sense to also try to rank them as well.

There is something that I disagree with, though:

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaolin (Post 2208880)

3. The scale is slightly different than the scale in the Heroscape ranking thread. It’s curved to give PWs higher rankings since picking one is mandatory. No PW is less than a B-, and no creature is higher than A-. The idea is that even the worst PW has value because they allow you to pick those stronger units in the first place. I’m open to suggestion with the ranking scale too.

A bad figure is a bad figure, regardless of how important to your army they are. Unless that bad figure is inextricably tied to another exceptional figure (such as classic's Kato Katsuro and Ashigaru, or Spartacus and Capuan Gladiators) that redeems them, I see no reason to inflate scores. If a Planeswalker is below average, then I think that should be reflected with a rank below B, and creatures should be allowed to reach as high as A+ if need be.

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Draft

They are tricky to rank, that’s for sure. Especially because you can take a weaker squad and beef them up, that changes the rankings mid-game in most cases. Also tricky to pick what the roles on the team would be, that can vary based on your squad. I just tried to pick the ones that made the most sense.

Ranking the spells is a great idea! Don’t know why I didn’t think of it. That will take a little effort, but I’m on it.

The 3rd part makes sense. The only rankings that could probably change are Nahiri, Gideon, and the Reavers. The PWs might be more like C+, and the Reavers A+ (the Reavers can tear things to shreds quickly).

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Draft

I like the ranking idea. You already have placed the PWs at the top of each color list. Perhaps, instead of listing the multi color PWs in the Gold section, place the listing for those PWs in each of the colors that they use. Each color has 3 PWs that can use those spells. In that way, I could compare all of the PWs that can use Black together. Adding the spells to that would interesting as well. A 25 point spell should be better than a 10 point spell, but is it always true?

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Draft

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targanth (Post 2213801)

I like that. Updated

Re: AotP Power Rankings: WIP

Bump because I added the spells

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

Having now played the game, I'd argue that both the Necro-Alchemist and Lantern Geists are at least an A, if not an A+.

The Necro-Alchemist has a nasty ruling from Hasbro that you can remove multiple markers per turn to further increase his attack, which lets him get up to a base attack of 9, potentially one-shotting a Planeswalker. Even if he misses, though, I've found that properly defending him and doing a burst of spells brings him back up to full charge in minimal time, letting him devastate another figure all over again. Honestly, I feel like the charge marker ruling kind of breaks him, albeit I haven't played with all of the colors yet to see if they also have such a super powerful unit.

As for the Lantern Geists, they bring an insane value for only 30 points. 4 life with 4 defense is tough to burst through, especially when they can fully heal themselves and reposition every time that your Planeswalker takes a turn. They might not have any great offensive potential, but they excel at tying down key targets to defend more costly units. That's also before taking into account the great deck control that they give you over your opponent, which would be pretty good on its own. The Leyline Phantoms are also good, of course, but these guys can be far more frustrating and take up far fewer points.

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

I could see raising both of them. But to play devils advocate a bit...

The only weakness I see with the Necro-Alchemist is that you play spells pretty often with Jace. It’s rare that you sit with cards for too many turns. And if you do 9 dice rolls you only get 4 of them, at best. Great if they’re at the PW, sometimes wasted on squads if you get surrounded. I’ve found that there are some late game situations where you could use 2 extra dice but are out of charges. I could see bumping him up to A- given that.

You make a good point for the Geists. I think they’re the cheapest squad in the game, and you can summon them in and out to heal. Only negative is they lose enchantments when unsummomed, so that is something to consider if you were trying to beef them up at all. But they have great value for the cost, calling them discount Phantoms probably wasn’t fair. I’ll agree with you for them.

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

It's true that Jace likes using his spells instead of letting them pile up, but that just charges the Necro-Alchemist even faster. 9 attack dice is still much higher than normal, and while it'll average 4.5 hits, that's still far more than the number of blocks that most enemies will be expecting to roll. Unless the target has 14 or more defense dice, you'll be expecting to deal at least some more damage, although I believe that he'll almost always cause plenty of destruction. His main weakness is definitely the fact that he can only get one attack per turn (along with struggling in the endgame, but he excels at the earlier-mid portion to make up for it), but when it's so powerful, the option is good regardless. I don't think he's as infallible as the Lantern Geists, but I'd say that he's definitely a solid A for how easily he can get that deadly attack.

I haven't toyed around with Green enough yet to know how much the Geists benefit from better Enchantments, but I think that there are probably better suited squads for them anyway. I'd much rather enchant another squad with more members that can take advantage of the boon than the Geists, so losing enchantments for an unsummon doesn't feel like much of a loss at all. They remind me of the Deathreavers from classic HeroScape quite a bit: both are difficult to kill and able to tie down enemy figures, all without ever needing to take dedicated turns with them.

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

N-A definitely takes some management. You have to clear those chargers, otherwise casting a spell is a waste (as far as he’s concerned). I will concede if you get him in early and use him often, he’s a wrecking ball. Just when compared to say the Kessig Ravagers, who I rated A-, I don’t know if I choose him over them if I’m playing with Kiora. I’ll give it some more thought, and update tonight when I’m near my laptop. (I did most of this on my phone but it’s a pain)

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astroking112 (Post 2218879)

Alright, I met you half way on the Necro Alchemist. A for the potential 9 dice attack, the minus due to late game struggles. I figured that’s the most fair way, since it’s only 2 of us with a difference of opinion.

I have the Lantern Geists some more thought, and I really would pick them over pretty much any team. I bumped them to A+. You made a lot of good points for them

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaolin (Post 2219617)

It's definitely fair. I do still think that he's an A-tier figure, but it's close enough that arguing about that minus doesn't make much of a difference, and not many others have weighed in yet.

I definitely agree with the Lantern Geists being A+. They're the first card that I'm drafting after my Planeswalker just about every time that I can.

I'll have to take a closer look at the colors beyond Blue and play some games with them when I get a chance to see if I have anything to suggest on the other units.

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

I'm seeing some disconnect in logic here:

Hope Against Hope (20) (SOI) A. Basically +2 health for a hero

Healing Salve (10) (MS) B+. A little healing and a card if it’s early enough in the game

Healing Salve costs half as much, can heal 2 from ANY friendly squad or hero creature on demand when you play it, AND it draws you another card! It's objectively better than Hope Against Hope. HAH being a hidden enchant is generally detrimental to your ability to use its effect, too, since it is nearly always delayed from actually doing it's healing by at least one turn from when you put it face down on your hero. Draw into HAH too late, and you may have to roll the dice on your damaged hero surviving one more turn; that hero dies, and HAH gets you zilch for value.

The only remotely redeeming factor is that HAH is technically "played/preloaded" when you put it face down on your hero, so when it is eventually flipped, on one of your proceeding turns you can play 3 spells on your turn along with destroying HAH to heal 2 from your hero, giving you more space to pump your hero with Inspired Charge, Chaplain's Blessing, Swift Justice, and/or Tenacity. That's still minor compared to what HS brings. (Regarding your ranking of Tenacity: Tenacity + HS combined are basically equivalent to Chaplain's Blessing, just split into two 10-point cards instead of one 20-point card. Tenacity should be no less than B+ simply for enchanting a white range 1 hero and effectively giving it +1 power, without even considering that squads can also now nuke **** that engages the enchanted hero.)

I agree with most of your tier lists, though. Seems to me that, at least when this tier list was written, you had a good understanding of the game. My own tier lists mostly align with these rankings here.

Re: AotP Power Rankings: Army and Spell cards

I'm back for more, I find this list intriguing to review. Couple more thoughts from me:

Nahiri, Fury in Stone (345): C. She can put together some decent squads, but you won’t be taking many turns with her army card active.

Ngl I'm quite shocked you labeled Nahiri even lower than Gideon. Gideon is, IMO, the absolute worst PW in the game. I even have the balls to say that I think most of Nahiri's various armies can consistently beat most of Gideon's. Hell, I think Nahiri puts up a reasonable fight against Sorin, and I think she is almost Sorin-caliber. When Nahiri has the biggest range on the map (which often happens against white, black, and somewhat with red; her 4 range is useful, as all these colors have no range other than Hookers, Lily, Chandra, and Arlinn,) she is an absolute pain to deal with when she can claim a glyph AND build her own high ground on it, often giving her and her army massive staying power.

Speaking of Nahiri being annoying, here's a card that I think can contribute to that, especially for those low range colors:

Not Forgotten (15) (SOI) C+. Good in theory, but you really have to luck out for it to work. And “luck out” in this case means someone on your team dies

I don't necessarily agree with the text excerpt, although I think the ranking is close enough. In my experience, if Nahiri has Not Forgotten on her AND she is the highest range figure on the map, guess what; I'm dropping all of Nahiri's creatures next to her and ranging down my opponent until they fight my creatures. And when they inevitably do that, Nahiri becomes even more powerful. Not Forgotten SEVERELY punishes opposing armies if you have bigger range than they do, since you can cuddle everything around your walker and passively buff them when your creatures die. It is much worse against high range colors (green & blue) because they can somewhat kite you and force you out of formation, losing Not Forgotten's benefits when your core has split up.

I think you are using a common misinterpretation for this:

Skyreaping (5) (MS) C-. It’s cheap, but so rare that it’s even playable

How is the condition of "choose a green creature you control" rarely playable? Unless you only use this in dual-color walker builds where you have maybe a single green creature army card in your army (at that point I'd suggest just taking one of the other color's 5 pt cards, frankly.) Skyreaping is by no means groundbreaking, but I'd personally give it a B to B+ simply for "Choose a green creature you control. Draw a card." If there happens to be any flying figures next to said green creature, then yeah Skyreaping is hella good, easily into the rank A range. For mono-green, I basically look at Skyreaping as "turn your deck into 11 cards/195 pts" which is helpful if you make it a point to assassinate the enemy walker quickly.

Next:

Twinflame (15) (MS) A. Easy A+ if it applied to heroes

Easy A+, full stop. Best spell in the game, IMO. Red actually doesn't do hero buffs/support very well, they are FAR better at stacking buffs on squads (Firebreathing, Power of Fire, Seize the Day.) Combine Twinflame with any one of those 3 for a high chance of devastation. Combine with any 2 of them, and you basically win the game, given you can reach the enemy walker with your buffed squaddie. Also, Arlinn effectively wins every match off the back of: Kessig Ranger double attack + Twinflame + Titanic Growth. Imagine if Zetacron had double attack and base 6 attack to go along with his deadly shot; that's the caliber of power you are dealing with. It's absolutely obscene and extremely hard to prevent as any color other than blue.

And while we're on the topic of red, let's go from the most busted spell down to the absolute worst spell:

Harness The Storm (20) (SOI) C+. It’s pretty strong, but the stars have to align and it wastes 2 cards

It is pretty strong. At helping your opponent kick your heinie. This spell is so bad it deserves to have a tier named after it at the very bottom of the entire spells repertoire.

1. It has the condition of creature dying in combat this turn, which tends to mean that you expended your "normal" move and attack (action 3+4) before playing this card. Since this card checks the position of your walker, generally you'd want to move your walker for optimal Harness the Storm (HtS) potential. Throwing your Planeswalker deep into enemy hands is almost never going to end well for you; your walker is, 90% of the time, the most crucial figure to keep alive.

2. You discard two cards. Lul? Red has no inherent way to generate extra draw outside of the standard action 1 draw. You severely gimp your future turn potential by doing this, and if you are discarding anything more expensive than 5-10 pt spells you are REALLY shooting yourself in the foot. Honestly this condition could completely disappear and HtS is still a pretty bad card, but man, discarding 2 bites so badly and destroys any chance that this card had to be relevant.

3. It indiscriminately deals 1 damage to all creatures within 3 spaces of your walker (this includes damaging any you control and/or your teammates'.) This somewhat goes with #1; basically, an ideal HtS play asks you to put your walker in a spot that is isolated from all friendly creatures while also being swamped by enemy creatures. That's a big no-no.

Unless you can setup a scenario where ~4 enemy creatures each 1 life left and they are all within a 3 spaces of the same central spot that your walker can get to (AND there are no friendlies in that same range,) this card shoots WAY below what it asks of you. Even if you do manage this miracle, was it worth the gamble of having to roll attack dice for a kill first, followed by playing this 20-point scam, followed by discarding 2 more cards from your hand?!? Yuck