The Pre-SoV Workshop
 

This thread is not affiliated with the SoV and does not guarantee any custom success in passing the SoV.

Hello all, the goal of this thread is to get people a chance to have their customs examined before they are submitted to the SoV. I know that at least 4 of the judges monitor this thread, so it's a great way to get some feedback.

Just make a post with your card/stat block and see what people say.

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 

[reserved]

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 

I'd put the same non-affiliation caveats in this thread as you did in the other one.

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I've encouraged threads like this in the past. I think it's an excellent idea and I encourage custom makers to use it. I'll gladly offer my :2cents: here and there, when I have the time.

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Looking forward to this! Maybe you can outline how you see this group in relation to the 3FG, the CHCG24, and your new playtesting exchange group. For a beginner, having a "road map" would be helpful in thinking about where to go for advice.

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Cool. I'll talk about it with capsocrates first though, since his vision is what helps to shape this.

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In other news, here's my attempt at the Green Wyrmling. capsocrates was concerned that it was too anti-hero, but heroes rarely have to waorry about Counter Strike since it deals only 1 wound and they can usually use a Special, or jsut roll too many dice for it too matter.It's been reduced to 4 defense, and had it's attack brought up to 4 to better fit in with Charos' 5/5. I tested it with Raelin against Knights, and though it won, it didn't feel completely one-sided (the Knights had a chance). That was at 3/5 though. 4 defense makes CS a bit less potent, and he has less offensive power than the other Wyrmlings due to the lack of special. The 4/4 makes up for that I think.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4...lingv1copy.jpg

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 

There's been a lot of discussion about creating a Green Wyrmling. This thread is the most recent community attempt. I've argued before about how I see such a thing as neither necessary nor fitting, and I believe I did in that thread too.

Putting that aside, yours is a very interesting twist on Fledgling Counterstrike. The once-per-turn limitation holds the power back significantly in a simple way. Still, adding Raelin makes them much stronger, and the design punishes heroes and squads with low numbers of figures.

Beyond that, though, personally I would never agree to the choice of figure. A bronze dragon is not a green dragon any more than a daisy is not a tulip. Even if you paint it green and say it's from Icaria, that dragon design is clearly a D&D bronze dragon. I couldn't get past that.

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Personally from the pictures I've seen the miniature looks green enough. I think this would be the best wyrmling we could get for charos. Now to make one for mimring!

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I seem to recall that one of the other problems with the Green Wyrmling was it's Valiant personality. That made it too powerful as a blocker for the 4th Mass.

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Hm. I don't really have a road map because every designer is different and not all customs should be made for the SoV. The liveliness of the customs department would be hurt, I think, if people stopped making customs that are too outside-the-box for the canon in one way or another. For a beginner I want to suggest a number of things.

*Playtest for the C3V. If you do this a lot, you'll have a shot at the Public Access Program, which is quite possibly one of the best learning experiences for a customs designer if you make use of it. Even if you don't get to be a C3V Public Access Member, the experience of analyzing the units and playing with them will give you a better feel for working with customs.

*Alternatively, playtest in the Playtest Exchange. If you're not interested in the C3V PAM (Public Access Member) route, this will serve a similar purpose as far as experience with analyzing and playtesting goes, and will also help you to build up points for when you have a unit you want others to playtest.

*Follow the customs threads of designers more experienced than yourself. Participate in conversations there. I suggest Son of Arathorn, Scytale, Lamaclown, and Super Bogue as examples, just to name a few. If you participate in their threads and have helpful, constructive dialogue it is more likely that others will be interested in giving the same in your own thread.

*Keep a journal (or folder, or whatever) of ideas. Let them sit and marinate some. Play with them. Wait to post them to your custom thread until you feel they've matured past infancy. What I've noticed about most of the good customs designers is that they only post one idea (or sometimes a group of closely related ideas) at a time, so that they can give people time to process and think about their design. They also don't seem to post every idea they have. Much like you might hear someone suggest for creative writing, I don't think its best to share something until you've had the chance to edit and rework it a few times on your own, in private. Sometimes after some time has passed and you see it with fresh eyes, you'll know what needs to be changed so that it works--or you'll realize that it's not an idea worth pursuing. You might decide to share it at that time.

*Keep in mind that not every idea is destined for the canon. One of the joys of custom design is the creativity of it. If you try to make every custom something that would be approved at the SoV you'll miss out on some fun opportunities to think outside the box and do something more original.

*If your goal is to make customs that are in-line with the canon, think about precedent. You don't have to have the same ideas as myself or anyone else, but you should seek to gain your own understanding of what has been done before and what hasn't, and why; and what is okay to do for the first time and what's not, and why.

*Have your units peer-reviewed. You may get enough feedback from comments in your thread, but if not, try to get the unit through 3FG or a similar workshop.

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Warning long post ahead!

The main problem for the wyrmling though was it capable of wiping the floor for common melee squads. You could attack twice against melee through wyrmling bonding. Then the squad could risk a disengagement attack 33% chance for a wound or they could attack it. With flying it could easily gain height. The valiant personality would give the 4th mass a valiant bonus.

Now to discuss the big problem: Counterstrike.
What I use to analyse it is this: Does the figure have a less than 50% chance of getting whacked with counterstrike and at what attack die number?

4 defense- attacker has to have 2 dice to have a 43.2% chance of counterstrike.

5 defense- attacker has to have 3 attack dice to have a 39.5% chance of counterstrike.

6 defense- attacker has to have 3 attack to have a 49.0% chance of counterstrike.

7 defense- attacker has to have 4 attack to have a 45.0% chance of counterstrike.

8 defense- attacker has to have 5 attack to have a 41.7% chance of counterstrike.

Now I believe Greygnarl's fixes the main problem with the previous versions. With only one counterstrike per turn melee squads can swarm it and take it down without too much loss.

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As for my personal vision for how this particular thread relates to the others: 3FG and CHG24 focus on making your custom the best it can be. They're not necessarily concerned with the canon, or with other thematic concerns. I envision this thread as a place where fans and judges alike could discuss how a unit might or might not fit into the canon.

There are other things that should be discussed here as well, of course, but most of them are handled by 3FG and CHG24.

greygnarl himself (and maybe even some of the other SoV judges), may have other ideas for the purpose of this thread as well.

There are many little things that will be left alone in 3FG or CHG24 that will bother fans or judges come nomination time. Ideally, this thread would be an opportunity to address those things before the unit enters SoV review and becomes essentially unchangeable.

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I agree with this mostly. The other purpose for this thread is that it could make a community custom ala Kheris Fehn to submit to the SoV. That would be something for the future though if enough people were interested.

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I hadn't thought of a community custom but it makes sense. We could come up with an idea like the French community did (anti dragon figure), construct a theme for it, construct powers and stats for it, and find a figure for the idea.

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Well, we already have an adult blue dragon (Quahon) who somehow lost/absorbed his front legs (see Blue Wyrmling) on the way to adulthood.;)

A color change doesn't see so drastic to me.:D

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I agree. We have Super Battle Droids for crying out loud. I don't think Super Battle Droids every time I look at them, I think Zettian Infantry. I'm pretty sure when most people see that sculpt they think Green Wyrmling, and if it went through SoV I'm pretty sure it would reinforce that viewpoint.

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The color change is meaningless; repainting is easy. It is the look of the dragon that is the issue. Each type of D&D dragon has a distinct design. Bronze dragons always look like this, and green dragons always look like this. Even if it's not from a D&D world, it still looks exactly like a D&D bronze wyrmling. It's like using a lion miniature and calling it a tiger.

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You would vote down the Green Wyrmling based on that alone?

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Uhh, none of the wyrmlings really look like the parents on close expection, so that point is moot. But I get what you are saying.

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I can precise (as the original creator of Kheris Fehn) that it's much harder than it seems to be. For Kheris for example, I made a card for him few months before we decided to exploit the idea for SoV. Then, it's about 45 pages of "intense" discussion to arrived at the final Army Card.
To make a community custom, it's as at C3V: we have to be very well organized and don't give up when a difficulty appears or when a "big playtesting job" is needed.

At this moment, we are working about another custom that will be submitted for SoV. We are facing some issues... Courage!

Obviously, the first thing to see when you create a custom, it's an available figure. It's not a good idea to make first the Card, and then impress a "WANTED" poster for a nice figure. ;)
All in all, I think it will be hard organizing a strong "Custom Builder Department for SoV" in such thread... but why not! ^^

But in another hand, it's a very good idea to make us possible to talk about some customs that could be submitted for SoV. I will enjoy helping others about "Canon's belonging", power's wording and each other detail that could make a custom better in order to be accepted by the SoV. ;)

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Yes, but you can paint a female tiger to look like a female lion (don't recommend this as there's a high risk of bodily harm). The average person won't know. The dragon pictures you showed to me the main difference was the wings and color. The wings are small on the wyrmlings so you can't really tell by that. The color can just be repainted on the miniature.

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Yes I would. The other Wyrmlings are all D&D wyrmlings. There have been some persuasive arguments to allow a wyrmling that is not a D&D one to join the ranks, but turning a bronze into a green is going too far. That's not to say it wouldn't pass SoV over my :down:, but that's my vote.

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Sorry, but when I see these photos, I can't imagine how a heroscaper that isn't an expert about D&D dragons could make the difference...

Anybody has a photo of the little Bronze dragon, to compare with Charos for example?

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 

Cool that you are making another figure to submit. I will personally play with Kheris if he passes SOV. Hope it all works out for you.

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I can't blame you. I would have nixed that sculpt for Quahon right away. (Not the design of the card however--Quahon is awesome.)

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Awesome, I can't wait to see the next custom from you guys.

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I have question for the judges. Would you ever consider a unit that was basically like a second version of the Blastatrons that used the same sculpts?

I have an idea that I think would be great to get a ll the Glad-less Blasts out of bins and onto the board, an was wondering if if the SoV would consider it? If not I'll probably just throw it up in my customs thread, but was wondering what you'd think.

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I would not like that. The only "repeat figures" in classic 'scape are the iconic Drake and Raelin, and they use different sculpts. :2cents:

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What about the gencon promos? Those reused sculpts of past figures.

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If I can ever find figures for it (vikings are damn near impossbile to find :passout:), do you think that this card would stand a chance?



Throws of the Tarn uses 2 figures per squad and has synergy with Throwers of the Tarn, Tarn Viking Warriors, MacDirk Warriors, and Valguard.

Known Rewording:
For Raiding Party, the text will eventually (and by eventually, I mean whenever I can figure how to get MSE to work once more) read as such:
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, and before taking a turn with the Throwers of the Tarn, you may take a turn with another squad of Human Warriors who follow Jandar. A hero you control may not take a turn until another Order Marker is revealed.

~Cheers~

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 

Looks like a cool concept. It should say "move and attack with any Human Squad you control that follows Jandar." That would eliminate bonding. And good catch on the change of wording for Berserker Charge :thumbsup:

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 

I wanted to have Berserker Charge activate twice, so unless your suggested wording still allows that power to be used for the squad Raiding Party will work with... :p

Thanks!

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I don't know exactly if it would work, and I could be wrong, but the Tarn's card says "after moving and before attacking", and doesn't mention taking a turn, like a bonding power does. :shrug: The point is, we know what it means, and C3V Editing could iron it out if it got that far.

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Alright, sounds good to me! :)

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I'm not keen on it, but I'm not wholly against it either. A clear turn-off for me is looking at the board and not knowing if a figure is a Blastatron or a Blastamegatron (or whatever). Repaints are good, though a repaint of, say, a common squad into a different common squad, or a unique hero into a different unique hero, would have to have a darn good design for me to like it.

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This is more or less how I feel.

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How exactly does Valguard have synergy with them? He doesn't follow Jandar;). I believe I've seen some pre-painted vikings before. I'll have to see if I can find them again.

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Valguard's Berserker Charge enhancement is the synergy.

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Ahh, I thought he meant bonding. Thanks Superfrog.

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Lol, Good luck! At one point I had seen a few, but the available numbers only totaled around 20 or so. :oops: Not enough for the SoV's 100+ standards. :p

(I suppose it doesn't help any that I've played 10 squads of these guys at one point too......)

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I want to get some of my customs into SoV, but I'm not sure which ones the best. If you could look at my customs( in my signiture) and tell me which is the best and what I could do to improve it it would really help. Thanks.

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That sounds narrow minded. Would you have voted against blue skinned orcs because they do not fit your/D&D preference?
The Wellsprings open to all worlds and to think there are only one kind of wyrmlings is choosing to restrict an already small miniature base for this project. Traditional European and Chinese dragons look very different yet hail from the same world. I think you are being extremely picky about fictional beings.

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Well, no, but orcs aren't dragons. D&D dragons all have a unique look. A bronze dragon looks like a bronze dragon. It is like using a tiger miniature and calling it a lion; it does not matter if you call it a Feylund lion it still looks like a tiger.

Using a D&D miniature to be something else from other world is normally ok with me, but the four existing wyrmlings are D&D wyrmlings. Putting what is clearly a bronze dragon alongside black, blue, red, and white dragons and calling it a green dragon? Sorry, no. Just make it a bronze wyrmling and I'll be happy to give it a chance.

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Well, I probably should have started here first, but I nominated Lord Revadac to the SoV, got some feedback that he needed some thematic tweaks, and so withdrew him from the process to seek advice here. Here's the entry:



So the feedback I got was 1) "Insane" doesn't really work for a skeleton, and 2) The name "Insane Commander" doesn't reflect the power itself, since it doesn't "command" the troops, and 3) "Cadaverous Touch" might have a better name.

I'm not wedded to the "Insane" personality, or either of the power names, so ask for your advice on these.

Personality: Most Undead have the Terrifying personality, with Tormented (PK) and Wild (Sudema). I like "Tormented" because of the backstory I've got, and because it will help justify the "Insane Commander" power (whatever I end up calling it.)

Cadaverous Touch: In my mind, the idea is that if you get close enough to him to wound him, his bony hand grabs you and your flesh begins to rot. So perhaps "Cadaverous Grasp" or "Necrotic Grasp" would reflect that. Open to other suggestions.

Insane Commander: I'm not sure what to replace this name with. "Fit of Madness"? "Temporary Insanity"? "Lashing Out"? "Friendly Fire"? "Psychotic Scorn"?

All your suggestions are appreciated... Thanks!

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Since this is the Battle of all Time these could be what Bronze dragons evolve into over thousands or millions of years like Enik and the Sleestaks in the original TV series Land of the Lost. Enik was tan/bronze but his descendants were green though they were physically the same the color was different.

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Tormented would be a fine fit for personality.

I like Fit of Madness as the alternate power name.

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I think Fit of Madness still makes it seem like he is prone to insanity.

Cruelty
Embracing Chaos
One Death is the Same as Another
Love of Killing
Unpredictable
Hunger for Death
Need to Kill


As for Cadaverous Touch:
- Deathly Touch
- Deathly Retribution
- Putrid
- Deadly Rot
- Chilling Wound