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-   -   AotP Needs your help! (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55699)

Skyver April 4th, 2019 08:16 PM

AotP Needs your help!
 
The future of the Multiverse rests in your hands...



Introduction:
So it's been on my mind lately to be part of a Project to sustain AotP with balanced, playtested releases similar to those seen in Heroscape-based projects such as C3G. I've seen similar sentiments from other members who wish that such a project existed, and so I decided to create this Opinion thread to gauge interest and to get some feedback on the possible directions of the project.

At least initially, I don't picture the project to be anywhere near the scope or intricacy of other, larger projects like C3G. I imagine the AotP community is not very large at the moment compared to Heroscapers, but I think that there are a lot of people out there with AotP Master sets who would play the game if it had more to offer than it currently does. Arena's greatest downfall, in my opinion, was its lack of support. As a result, the game has a LOT of untapped potential. The Magic: The Gathering (MTG) universe is rich, not only in lore and characters but in locations as well.

The intent is for this to be a Community effort. So the success of it would largely be dependent on the involvement of individual members. Therefore I made this thread to ask you, as a community, for your opinions on what kind of things you would like to see out of a Project like this.

The biggest decision at the moment (besides deciding on a catchy Acronym!) would be to decide the scope and purpose of the project. For example, there have been efforts already to port Heroscape figures into AotP, and vice versa. There are also people who believe that future AotP customs should be designed totally independently from Heroscape. I've decided to split these choices into a few major groups. Here's the explanation for each one:

Option 1: Integrate AotP
With the relatively small list of released figures for AotP, it would not be infeasible to import all current figures into the Heroscape format. After all, they are already 90% similar. Generals could be assigned for each unit, or they could simply be grouped by MTG color. @wriggz shared some beautiful custom templates that provide a really good representation of what the latter option could look like:
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=52378

https://i.ibb.co/0fLsb4C/Jace.jpg
(Credit to @wriggz )

In taking this route, AotP would essentially become an MTG Expansion to Heroscape. Like Superscape, it could be recommended to be played separately, but would otherwise be fully integrated into the same 'network' as other formats such as Classic 'Scape customs and Superscape customs. (Unique aspects of the game could still be retained and integrated, such as the Spell cards). Future MTG customs would be released as part of this Heroscape/AotP hybrid format.

The advantage to this approach is that the player-bases would be more unified. Terminologies would also be altered to proper Heroscape wording, making integrated games much easier than they currently are. For example, Spell cards would be made clear as to what they can and can't target, and may even be carefully rebalanced to reflect their expanded usability.

The primary disadvantage is that we lose the accessibility of the original game as an independent entity. Players who are solely interested in AotP would have to familiarize themselves with Heroscape terminologies and mechanics (and terrain, which is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain) in order to benefit from the custom work being created. In addition, balancing would prove more difficult if designers had to account for the interactions between future AotP customs and other mainstream custom releases.

Option 2: Integrate Heroscape
This is essentially the opposite approach from the first. The idea would be to take as many Classic (and perhaps Custom?) Heroscape figures as possible and integrate them into Arena of the Planeswalkers. These could either be simple ports where only slight modifications are made and colors are assigned to them, or the creatures/characters could be renamed and rethemed to fit in with the MTG Lore. @quozl begun such a project a few years ago, and you can read more about it here:
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=53239

https://i.ibb.co/kgsLKWP/POV2.jpg
(Credit to @quozl )

If the community decides that this is the way to go, we could focus our efforts on porting RotV figures first, then continuing on to include all official HS figures. It would be a larger undertaking than Option 1, but still doable. A clear advantage to this approach is that there is a wealth of already-established units to convert, and many AotP players already own the miniatures. Creating new names, alignments, mechanics and themes for established miniatures could be a fun and interesting challenge.

A disadvantage to this approach is that some players may feel a lack of excitement over the reusing of classic miniatures, especially if the cards are simple ports of the originals. In the case of rethemed miniatures, some people may have the idea of the original characters so ingrained in their heads that they have a hard time suspending disbelief in order to see the same miniatures under a different light. Repaints / figure modifications may be a remedy for this effect, but that would then require more work on the part of the individual player.

Option 3: Keep AotP Independent
This option basically speaks for itself. The idea would be to allow AotP to grow as an independent game with its own terminologies, card formats and balancing as originally intended by the designers. An exception might be made when it comes to Terrain, as Heroscape terrain is popular enough and works well enough with the core AotP game that it could be considered a valid blending of the two. But the main idea is still to stay as true to the game as possible.

The advantage here is that designers can narrow their focus on the game as it currently exists, without having to worry about rebalancing card effects, spell cards, or altering wording from one type of game to another. New cards would be balanced and evaluated based solely off of the already released content, without any consideration of possible interactions with Superheros or other Custom or Official Heroscape content.

The disadvantage to this approach is that blending units from the two games may be harder for those who want to do it. Strange or broken interactions between spell cards or character abilities are bound to occur when mixing games and, due to the lack of any 'official' rulings on the matter, would be up to the individual player to resolve.

House rules can be utilized as a fix for this, such as the "Mixed Play" Rules thought up by @TREX which you can see here:
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=53350
https://i.ibb.co/3mRyWLZ/pov3.jpg
(Credit to @TREX )

These type of rules have been attempted in various ways, and are usually quite playable. However, they suffer from the simple limitation that the two games are not designed to work in exact conjunction. Several features have to be cut or reduced, such as restricting the use of specific spell cards (like Enchantments). Some rulesets go further than others, and the list of rulings and exceptions can get quite complicated, with reference charts often having to be used to remember the differences. So while it is doable, it is not necessarily optimal.

Concluding Thoughts:
So as you can see, each direction comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages. In my eyes, they are all noble undertakings, and any one of them would be worth the potential challenges. However, when it comes to this project, there really needs to exist a specific vision for what we want future custom AotP to be. We are at a crossroads, and it is up to the community to decide.

That being said, I am aware that there may be other options besides the ones I listed, or other Advantages/Disadvantages that I neglected to mention. Feel free to share your thoughts, concerns, and/or support below! I look forward to hearing what the community has to say.

Some people who have been previously part of the discussion: @TREX , @IAmBatman , @Sir Yeshua , @Astroking112 , @capsocrates , @Tiranx , @TheTravelingScaper

Skyver April 4th, 2019 08:40 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
(Reserved space).

Astroking112 April 4th, 2019 10:34 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
Integrating the AotP minis to normal HeroScape is (and should be) a job for C3V/SoV, in my eyes. I have a lot of thoughts on that subject in particular, but that's more of a discussion for another time.

I personally would prefer a blend of the last two options. Much like C3V sought to continue classic HeroScape in the designers' vision, any kind of project to continue AotP would feel weird if it tried changing the game too much. I don't want to see a painstaking effort to convert Ne-Gok-Sa into a Planeswalker or anything (as cool as that sounds); I'd rather see miniatures selected from various games to design new units in the AotP universe, using HeroScape figures or other ones as necessary.

TREX April 4th, 2019 11:38 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
Ill throw my pennies here real quick. Ive invested a chunk of my time making the books of for the last to aotp boxes. It took a minute to scan all those cards and make all those books. I was at this same place before, when we first got this new game. I came to a conclusion based on time and resources that LESS is MORE. You could make all the scape units into AOTP, and you could make all the AOTP into scape. Its reinventing the wheel. You guys just said that there are new magic miniatures that are now available. You also are fans of the magic game. Why not make new, fun units that go with the AOTP sets that expand on that game. Even though you can play the two games together much like you can play vanillascape with c3g its not recommended for competitive play. I would just expand that game with your knowledge of magic the gathering and make new legit planeswalkers and units. That sounds bounds and leaps more exciting than rehashing all these same units. Anyway penny throwing done. I look forward to what you guys come up with.

shaolin April 4th, 2019 11:40 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
So I’m a big fan of playing games that combine AotPW and Heroscape, including C3V and Marvel cards. I generally stick to the rules you posted with some house tweaks. However, for this project, I think designing with just AotPW spells and card costs in mind would keep the custom creations more true to the AotPW game. Then like you said, people can play mixed games on their own, it wouldn’t be much different than playing a mixed game now. Just more options.
There was another thread on here where someone attempted to make some custom planewalkers based on the PWs from magic that didn’t make it to the game, I thought that was a good idea. Especially if they allow color combos we don’t see already, like black and green. But I’m getting ahead of myself. Back to the topic, I vote keep it separate

Skyver April 4th, 2019 11:53 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TREX (Post 2270509)
Ill throw my pennies here real quick. Ive invested a chunk of my time making the books of for the last to aotp boxes. It took a minute to scan all those cards and make all those books. I was at this same place before, when we first got this new game. I came to a conclusion based on time and resources that LESS is MORE. You could make all the scape units into AOTP, and you could make all the AOTP into scape. Its reinventing the wheel. You guys just said that there are new magic miniatures that are now available. You also are fans of the magic game. Why not make new, fun units that go with the AOTP sets that expand on that game. Even though you can play the two games together much like you can play vanillascape with c3g its not recommended for competitive play. I would just expand that game with your knowledge of magic the gathering and make new legit planeswalkers and units. That sounds bounds and leaps more exciting than rehashing all these same units. Anyway penny throwing done. I look forward to what you guys come up with.

I'm personally leaning towards this too. If others are on board, I'd be happy to go this route.

Also, I may or may not be already working on several new cards based on the Guilds of Ravnica miniatures... ;)

TREX April 5th, 2019 12:11 AM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyver (Post 2270518)
Quote:

Originally Posted by TREX (Post 2270509)
Ill throw my pennies here real quick. Ive invested a chunk of my time making the books of for the last to aotp boxes. It took a minute to scan all those cards and make all those books. I was at this same place before, when we first got this new game. I came to a conclusion based on time and resources that LESS is MORE. You could make all the scape units into AOTP, and you could make all the AOTP into scape. Its reinventing the wheel. You guys just said that there are new magic miniatures that are now available. You also are fans of the magic game. Why not make new, fun units that go with the AOTP sets that expand on that game. Even though you can play the two games together much like you can play vanillascape with c3g its not recommended for competitive play. I would just expand that game with your knowledge of magic the gathering and make new legit planeswalkers and units. That sounds bounds and leaps more exciting than rehashing all these same units. Anyway penny throwing done. I look forward to what you guys come up with.

I'm personally leaning towards this too. If others are on board, I'd be happy to go this route.

Also, I may or may not be already working on several new cards based on the Guilds of Ravnica miniatures... ;)

Getting cards made using the AOTP templates and new magic figures put in here by I believe @mac122 , and getting them play tested is probably the most exciting news for this project.

Lazy Orang April 5th, 2019 07:30 AM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
Personally, I really like the look of AotP, but my first love is Heroscape and my primary interest in AotP is as a Heroscape sub-game with a unique conceit which can be blended with Heroscape itself (I imagine Mixed games allowing Classic, Super and AotP in the same melting pot would be a tonne of fun). As such my vote would first be for A, then C (or maybe a blended version of the two?) B holds zero interest for me.
That being said, I only have the original set right now and wouldn't have the time to devote to this project. If one of those were picked, though, I'd likely end up following and being a fan of it. :)

I remember putting this together a while back when I first got AotP as a plan for mixing them - I'm still pretty happy with it, the only bit I'm not convinced about anymore is the 'Problem Cards' section, which I think may be best just left:

Mixing AotP with Heroscape

Basic Concepts

Order Markers, Rounds and Initiative are reinstated - Heroscape is the larger, more established game, so AotP is being blended with it rather than vice versa.
That being said, so we still have a feeling of AotP’s flexible turns, if an Order Marker is revealed on a Planeswalker, you may instead take a turn with any Creature Army Card of that Planeswalker’s colour, even if that Planeswalker is destroyed.
When you draft a Planeswalker, you may also draft a deck of exactly 12 spell cards of up to 200 points alongside that Planeswalker to be his or her deck, for free. You may only draw a card from this deck after revealing an Order Marker on this Planeswalker. You do still start with three cards drawn for each Planeswalker, however. These cards may also only be cast during a turn after which you revealed an Order Marker on their Planeswalker.
Squad figures with multiple Life retain that multiple Life - it’s how they’re meant to work and how they’re balanced, it would be wrong to change it to bring it more into line with Scape.
Creatures may be drafted with or without a compatible Planeswalker. If drafted with a compatible Planeswalker, they do not start the game on the battlefield and are summoned by that Planeswalker the same way they are in AotP. If they are not drafted with a compatible Planeswalker, they start the game on the battlefield. If there are any powers they may not use due to not having a Planeswalker or not being summoned (i.e. Blazing Firecats’ Haste, Flamewing Phoenixes’ Rebirth, Illusionary Projections’ Collective Knowledge or Kor Hookmasters’ Detain), tough luck.

Definitions of Terms

Planeswalkers count as Unique Heroes for the purposes of special powers in Heroscape.
If a power or spell says ‘Creature’ without clarification, it means any Common or Unique figure that is not a Planeswalker unless otherwise mentioned in Other Errata.
If a power or spell says ‘Planeswalker’ without clarification, it may also be used on any Heroscape Unique Hero figure unless otherwise mentioned in Other Errata.
Any Enchantment card that is used to boost or benefit an allied figure can only be cast on figures of the same Colour as the Planeswalker casting it. For example, Duress may not be cast on the Marro Warriors.
Only squads that were summoned may be returned to their owner’s reserve.

Problem Cards

Crippling Blight - Concern: May be too devastating vs. large numbers of Classicscape Common Squads of the same type. This is the one I’m least convinced is problematic.
Strangling Soot - Concern: Unless we change the definition of Creature or change the way this works vs. Heroscape figures, this is hideously OP.
Bone Splinters - Concern: 4 auto-wounds (no roll required!) to an opponent’s figure at the cost of a Black squad figure is devastating to an unfair degree when you consider Heroscape Heroes.
Incinerate - Concern: 3 auto-wounds (no roll required!) to an opponent’s figure is devastating to an unfair degree when you consider Heroscape Heroes.

Other Errata

Duress - Unlike most cards, it does not reference all Unique Heroes when it references Planeswalkers. However, in addition, when a creature in the Enchanted squad deals combat damage to an opponent’s figure with the Magical Defence special power, you may discard a C3G spell card at random from that player’s army.
Psychic Rebuttal - Flip it over the next time an opponent plays a sorcery or casts a C3G spell card, to counter that card.
Mental Agony - As well as being used to discard an opponent’s AotP spell card at random, it may instead be used to discard an opponent’s C3G spell card at random.
Liliana’s Caress - As well as being used to discard an opponent’s AotP spell card at random, it may instead be used to discard an opponent’s C3G spell card at random.
Talent of the Telepath - As well as being used to play a sorcery from a spell graveyard, it may instead be used to cast an already cast C3G spell card.

Left-Hand Stats

Figures in AotP have a list of a few attributes rather than a proper set of Species, Class and Personality, with the Black Creatures not even being listed as Undead, so, for the purposes of a mixed game, the AotP units have the following attributes:

Chandra Nalaar, Pyromancer - Species: Human, Class: Planeswalker, Personality: Reckless.
Gideon Jura, Combat Mage - Species: Human, Class: Planeswalker, Personality: Valiant.
Jace Beleren, Mindmage - Species: Human, Class: Planeswalker, Personality: Tricky.
Liliana Vess, Necromancer - Species: Human, Class: Planeswalker, Personality: Ambitious.
Nissa Revane, Animist - Species: Elf, Class: Planeswalker, Personalty: Tricky
Blazing Firecats - Species: Elementals, Class: Cats, Personality: Relentless.
Blighted Reavers - Species: Undead, Class: Zombies, Personality: Terrifying.
Elf Rangers - Species: Elves, Class: Scouts, Personality: Tricky.
Flamewing Phoenixes - Species: Phoenixes, Class: Scouts, Personality: Relentless.
Illusionary Projections - Species: Illusions, Class: Decoys, Personality: Tricky.
Kor Hookmasters - Species: Kor, Class: Soldiers, Personality: Disciplined.
Leyline Phantoms - Species: Illusions, Class: Scouts, Personality: Tricky.
Pummelroot Elementals - Species: Elementals, Class: Constructs, Personality: Dauntless.
Restless Zombies - Species: Undead, Class: Zombies, Personality: Terrifying.
Rhox Veterans - Species: Rhinos, Class: Soldiers, Personality: Disciplined.


Note: As written, a number of powers and spells will only be usable against enemies with other AotP units. I’ve tried to prune the number of those down, but I can’t eliminate it entirely. I’m okay with that - I don’t think it will do too much harm for a handful of spells/abilities to be only useful as counters to other Planeswalkers, as long as the units are generally useful anyway. Looking at his spellcards, though, I fear Jace will be generally confined to counter-draft territory...

Dr.Phibes April 5th, 2019 07:09 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
For the problem cards.... Why don't we have a ban list? I wouldn't see a huge issue with that.

capsocrates April 5th, 2019 07:26 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
I voted option 3, but option 1 is fine as well (sometimes checkbox polls are nice for this). The nice thing about option 3 is that AotP is already compatible with Heroscape with no changes (you just have to define some terms and clarify a few ruling intersections). I prefer 3, though, because some of the AotP cards are imbalanced in Heroscape and I'd rather not see them nerfed just for HS. :2cents:

mac122 April 5th, 2019 08:39 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TREX (Post 2270531)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyver (Post 2270518)
Quote:

Originally Posted by TREX (Post 2270509)
Ill throw my pennies here real quick. Ive invested a chunk of my time making the books of for the last to aotp boxes. It took a minute to scan all those cards and make all those books. I was at this same place before, when we first got this new game. I came to a conclusion based on time and resources that LESS is MORE. You could make all the scape units into AOTP, and you could make all the AOTP into scape. Its reinventing the wheel. You guys just said that there are new magic miniatures that are now available. You also are fans of the magic game. Why not make new, fun units that go with the AOTP sets that expand on that game. Even though you can play the two games together much like you can play vanillascape with c3g its not recommended for competitive play. I would just expand that game with your knowledge of magic the gathering and make new legit planeswalkers and units. That sounds bounds and leaps more exciting than rehashing all these same units. Anyway penny throwing done. I look forward to what you guys come up with.

I'm personally leaning towards this too. If others are on board, I'd be happy to go this route.

Also, I may or may not be already working on several new cards based on the Guilds of Ravnica miniatures... ;)

Getting cards made using the AOTP templates and new magic figures put in here by I believe @mac122 , and getting them play tested is probably the most exciting news for this project.

I started working on card blanks and an MSE add-on, but at the time AotP was hot, someone else said they were doing it and had better blanks, so I stopped. I could be wrong, but I don't think the others were ever posted. The blanks I did are posted here.

Skyver April 7th, 2019 04:46 PM

Re: AotP Needs your help!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mac122 (Post 2270830)
Quote:

Originally Posted by TREX (Post 2270531)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyver (Post 2270518)
Quote:

Originally Posted by TREX (Post 2270509)
Ill throw my pennies here real quick. Ive invested a chunk of my time making the books of for the last to aotp boxes. It took a minute to scan all those cards and make all those books. I was at this same place before, when we first got this new game. I came to a conclusion based on time and resources that LESS is MORE. You could make all the scape units into AOTP, and you could make all the AOTP into scape. Its reinventing the wheel. You guys just said that there are new magic miniatures that are now available. You also are fans of the magic game. Why not make new, fun units that go with the AOTP sets that expand on that game. Even though you can play the two games together much like you can play vanillascape with c3g its not recommended for competitive play. I would just expand that game with your knowledge of magic the gathering and make new legit planeswalkers and units. That sounds bounds and leaps more exciting than rehashing all these same units. Anyway penny throwing done. I look forward to what you guys come up with.

I'm personally leaning towards this too. If others are on board, I'd be happy to go this route.

Also, I may or may not be already working on several new cards based on the Guilds of Ravnica miniatures... ;)

Getting cards made using the AOTP templates and new magic figures put in here by I believe @mac122 , and getting them play tested is probably the most exciting news for this project.

I started working on card blanks and an MSE add-on, but at the time AotP was hot, someone else said they were doing it and had better blanks, so I stopped. I could be wrong, but I don't think the others were ever posted. The blanks I did are posted here.

I have MSE templates made by someone else, but I am working on touching them up a bit to improve the formatting. I am also working on a bonus addition that I think a lot of people will like. I'll post the updated templates in a separate thread once they are ready.


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