Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

Blob, Spider-girl, Jean Grey, and Graviton can all currently prevent Beyonder from getting into lava and Magneto can toss him back out.
I dunno, the proposed power line just sounded cheesy and customy. But if it's going to ruin the unit for you guys without it, I understand, and think some sort of line should be on there ... do you guys have any other wording possibilities for it?

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

Updated.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

You could make it bigger:

Dimensional twisting
Terrain effects on all terrain within 4 (8?) spaces of Beyonder are cancelled.

~Aldin, stripping the puny mortals of their petty defenses

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

I think it'd have to be 10 spaces to really do the trick given how easily he can move units around with both his summoning and Mere Pawns.
So would this mean that Namor couldn't use water for special powers? Or just that everyone could pass through water without stopping and lost their defensive bonuses on shadow tiles (and, of course, the lava part). Is the +1 to defense against ranged attacks for Jungle Trees considered a terrain effect?

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

I think a bigger effect has a certain level of awesomeness to it so I'm kinda liking 10 spaces. Since it cancels the effects and not the type, Namor should still receive the benefit of being on water and all terrain dependant abilities should function. I think it treats Molten Lava, Lava Rock, Heavy Ice, Heavy Snow, Water, Shadow and spaces adjacent to Jungle as if they cause no damage, have no effect on movement and offer no shield boosts.

~Aldin, world warpingly

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

Works for me. :-) I think this is probably the best way to go here. Thanks for the great feedback, Aldin. :-)

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

Great idea, I love it! I updated the first post.

Anyone have other changes they'd like to see?

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

Hmm ... not 100% on that "are canceled" language, actually, now that I look at it again ...


DIMENSIONAL TWISTING
All terrain within 10 spaces of Beyonder does not have terrain effects.

?

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

Works for me. Either way, I think we'll need an FAQ for that power to explain exactly what it entails. But I'm okay with that.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

Cool. It's a final editing issue anyway. Anyway, here's my preemptive vote for playtesting.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - ERB Phase
 

I went ahead and updated the first post anyway.

I propose we move Beyonder to Playtesting.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

YEA

Great work fellas:D

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Yea. He is looking Dy-No-Mite!
http://www.laughstub.com/images/come...y_Walker_1.jpg

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

I am sorry, but I can't vote to move this card forward. I think we need to think more about this card and what needs to be done, but this power has no valid theme behind it. It is clearly a "fix it" power designed to cover the ass of the rest of the card.

I am sorry, but when Beyonder shows up, people cannot suddenly walk on water, avoid lava, run across snow, lose their bonus on concrete, asphalt, or road, and they certainly don't lose their ability to boost their defense by hiding behind jungle trees..... I just can't support this AT ALL.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

OK, I hear the concern about how Beyonder is TOO powerful on lava, I hear that. But currently, that fear is based on speculation, not fact. I think we need to playtest first on lava before "fixing" anything. After all, we did already "fix" lava rules.

Lets test more and see what the test results say before freaking out.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Perhaps we can hold up the current vote until I can get another test in with him ... I'll proxy the shadow tiles on Platforms 5 and 6 as lava and try it out tomorrow.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

So for now, I vote NAY.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Just to help the train with the braking, I'll vote Nay for the moment also.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Okay, I'm okay with waiting on another test.

The thing with the lava is, it is thematic. I mean this guy could kill any hero with just a thought, but I can also see how it would be annoying to play against. Also, Aldin's fix is also thematic. Even though Beyonder doesn't normally change terrain around, it's not beyond (no pun intended) his ability to do so. It's not that far off from him putting Battleworld together.

But yeah, let's try some more tests with lava and see where we stand.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

If it is thematic for him to do all those things that I listed, can I have some references where he has done them? Not trying to be too too cocky here, but I bet you won't be able to produce those references.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

- Army Test/ Does it pass?
Map: Platforms 5 and 6
Units: Beyonder (2500) vs. Invisible Woman (215), Blob (165), Super-Skrull (340), Martian Manhunter (300), Green Lantern John Stewart (340), Graviton (400), Jean Grey (180), Loki (420), and Spider-Girl (140) (2500)

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

I didn't mean that he had done those specific things, I meant that it's within his power to do so if he wanted. Kind of like Superman being able to fly to Pluto. There may not be a comic where he ever did it, but given what we know about his powers we know he could do it. Same with Beyonder - he can do anything, so that's within his power, and therefore not unthematic.

But it really doesn't matter, because I'm open to changing or removing that power if we need to, it's not a big deal. Let's see what Bats comes up with in his playtests.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Gotcha. Now just so you understand where I am coming from on this, I think that it is bit crazy to put a power on a card of a character, and it be a power that the character has never done. I mean technically, Beyonder could turn everyone on the battlefield into a gelatinous cube, but why would we want to do that if it is something he has never done?

I think that it is clear that the proposed power was simply a "fixit" power, and there is nothing entirely wrong with that, but there is IMO, when the power has no true representation of the character.

There, I just wanted to make sure you knew why I voted the way I did, and that it had nothing to do with the rest of the design (which I think is great btw). :)

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Oh, the power is absolutely a fixit power, I don't think anyone is denying that. I understand your vote, and I don't even fully disagree, so no worries.

So just in case the playtest shows that it is a problem, do you have any other ideas on fixing it?

(by the way, we could totally do the gelatinous cube idea! :p )

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Playtest is in. :-) Judge for yourself if this is a problem.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Sounds fine to me. I'd be okay with dropping that third power. I'm sure he'd be a problem against figures that can't counter him as well, but that's what happens in random drafts.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Your playtest confuses me a bit. Against that matchup, isn't moving to lava and grabbing Blob the first thing Beyonder would do? Now he's where he wants to be and can't be moved. Neither defense against movement causes any harm to Beyonder either - so why did he shy away from attempts?

~Aldin, who also thinks the heroes did pretty well to average inflicting 2 wounds per OM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

He did move to lava first thing - but Graviton threw him away from it and then (with Blob's permission) threw Blob into him to stick him away from lava.
Martian Manhunter throwing 8 dice from extreme height made the 2 wounds per OM fairly easy. Also, Beyonder's defensive rolls were not that great for the game overall.
I'm not sure what you mean with your other point ... Graviton's grasp can prevent people from attacking, though. Also, he shied away from some mind control rolls simply because a failed roll (happened several times) is a wasted turn. Psionic Grip and Gravitational Grasp were useful for stopping those he did mind control from taking the hot lava plunge.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

*shrug*

Fair enough. But now it looks like he might be way too weak? Since he may stat up quite a bit in playtesting, would you be willing to check this again after he gets to where he doesn't get spanked like a little girl?

~Aldin, not liking the idea that a combination of half his points of heroes can totally pwn him

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Yeah, I kind of wondered if he was too weak after reading that, too.

If we think he needs some beefing up, some options are to give him range, give him a power that allows for multiple attacks per OM, or simply bump his Life.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

I don't think he needs any beefing up. Don't go just based on a single playtest. Recall that he totally owned a 2000+ point X-Men team on a non-lava map. At 2500 points there are so many factors involved that there's going to be a good deal of swing.
I think what we need to do now is get this guy to additional playtesting and settle on what his cost should be. I think the design is fine at the moment.
It's not every army that will be able to so effectively counter every single thing Beyonder does - and this one had a good deal of dice luck to boot.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Also, I failed to mention that the one wound on Blob came from when Beyonder went all Mere Pawns on him and walked him into lava. Had Blob failed to roll over a 10, he would've died instead of taking one wound, and the game might've been totally different.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

I wonder if we need several lava map tests?

~Aldin, toastily

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Well the original concern was that he'd be broken on a lava map, right? Do we really need any more tests to confirm that he's not?

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

I think I am ready at this point to stop theoryscaping and fear mongering about the design, and just have the playtesters give us some real results to add to the already solid results. Thanks for that Bats.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

I'll drop the "theoryscaping and fearmongering" and apologize for expressing concerns about a figure that annhilated 2,000 points of X-Men on a typical map and then got spanked by 2,000 points of hodge podge (Loki held out of the fight) on a favorable map. Sounds like he's ready to go to me.

~Aldin, unsubscribingly

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Apology accepted. I too am ready for him to go "get more results so we can make a truly informed decision". Thanks for the support.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Beyonder is a crazy swingy unit, which I think, given the power level we're trying to represent here (both thematically and in point value), is probably unavoidable.
I by no means consider his design or his cost "set" (in fact, after that last test, I think he should probably be moved to playtesting at around 2250 points), nor do I consider his powers set. But I think putting him in the hands of other testers and seeing where they're at is the best thing we can do right now.
Honestly, a guy like this should probably go through about six testers before we can consider him finished.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Okay, so back to...I propose we send Beyonder to the playtesters.

Thanks for your help everyone!

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Yea for more playtesting.

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

whitestuff and Necro left...

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Playtesting
 

I am actually back now, so here is my Yea.
I would also like to point out that (Aldin, I hope your still reading along) a move to playtesting by no means implies a unit is ready to go public. In fact, with the exception of Anti-monitor, every event hero has had to undergo numerous rounds of designing and playtesting. Just look at Ultron, who I think turned out pretty darn good. More playtesting will just give an idea of directions to go to improve him. Then it will be on to another round of playtesting.