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-   -   Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31300)

mac122 December 28th, 2010 06:39 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamaclown (Post 1302916)
EDIT:
Now that I think about it I do think a post-destruction replacement ability is the best and most thematic. Refresh me- did the agents destroy the host when they took over or did the people revert back when the agent was finished with them? Either I don't recall, or the movies never dealt with that.

If I recall, if an agent was killed, he left the dead host for another. The poor unfortunate previous host was left dead on the ground with whatever wounds were inflicted.

Lamaclown December 29th, 2010 03:24 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mac122 (Post 1302956)
If I recall, if an agent was killed, he left the dead host for another. The poor unfortunate previous host was left dead on the ground with whatever wounds were inflicted.

hmmm... interesting. That gives me an idea for an ability but not for Agent Smith.

How about an AE type of ability to really give the feel of Agent Smith dropping in unexpectedly (this is with a Common Hero approach in mind)...

UNPLUGGED
You may place up to 3 Agent Smith figures on this card. Agent Smith does not start the game on the battlefield. At the start of each round, before you place Order Markers, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher you may remove 1 common figure you control from the battlefield and place 1 Agent Smith from this card on the space the removed figure occupied. If Agent Smith is destroyed you may place him back on this card.

This kind of bounces off of Balantai's idea. It is kind of wordy though for a fig that has other abilities. Oh, well, it was a thought...

killercactus December 29th, 2010 03:39 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I think we need to decide which Agent Smith we are making, because he is distinctly different from the Matrix to Reloaded and Revolutions (or actually, from the point Neo falls in love with Trinity onward).

If we're making pre-Neo-loves-Trinity Smith, then he's just a regular Matrix agent that might be a little angrier than the others. He should have Stealth Dodge and probably some sort of ability to replace another figure on the battlefield, but he should be a singular entity.

If we're making post-Neo-loves-Trinity Smith, when he's getting out of hand because Neo's love is forcing the equation to unbalance, then he should still have Stealth Dodge, along with the ability to somehow copy himself so that there are multiple Smiths. I think this is what the original idea was going towards with him being a Unique Squad, and also with the "Unplugged" ability, since Smith does not become unplugged from the Matrix until Neo falls in love with Trinity and destroys his original program.

Lamaclown December 29th, 2010 04:07 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by killercactus (Post 1303419)
I think we need to decide which Agent Smith we are making, because he is distinctly different from the Matrix to Reloaded and Revolutions (or actually, from the point Neo falls in love with Trinity onward).

If we're making pre-Neo-loves-Trinity Smith, then he's just a regular Matrix agent that might be a little angrier than the others. He should have Stealth Dodge and probably some sort of ability to replace another figure on the battlefield, but he should be a singular entity.

If we're making post-Neo-loves-Trinity Smith, when he's getting out of hand because Neo's love is forcing the equation to unbalance, then he should still have Stealth Dodge, along with the ability to somehow copy himself so that there are multiple Smiths. I think this is what the original idea was going towards with him being a Unique Squad, and also with the "Unplugged" ability, since Smith does not become unplugged from the Matrix until Neo falls in love with Trinity and destroys his original program.

:thumbsup:
Let's give PK a chance to define more his vision for Agent Smith and which version of the program he would like to see fleshed out.

dfonse December 29th, 2010 04:49 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I think that he should still be a unique hero. But, he should have the ability to spawn uncommon Agent Smiths from already living Smiths. The original should be considered unique because he is still a person not "an Agent smith" he is "The Agent Smith." Also, this way a person cannot draft multiple Agent Smiths. In the movie could the characters tell which smith was real? If so he is unique.

killercactus December 29th, 2010 04:56 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfonse (Post 1303455)
I think that he should still be a unique hero. But, he should have the ability to spawn uncommon Agent Smiths from already living Smiths. The original should be considered unique because he is still a person not "an Agent smith" he is "The Agent Smith." Also, this way a person cannot draft multiple Agent Smiths. In the movie could the characters tell which smith was real? If so he is unique.

Once Smith copied himself once, no one could tell which was the original one - they ALL were. At the end of Revolution, Neo becomes a Smith and is then killed by the machines in the real world, who supposedly were able to access the Smith program within Neo's body and delete it, since programs are supposed to return to the source for deletion once their purpose had been served, and that's where Neo was. When that happened, all of the other Smith's died, too, signifying that they were all indeed the same Smith, not just clones of Smith himself.

I'm not sure if that paragraph even makes any sense. However, I'd be OK with a player being able to draft multiple Smiths (as long as he is the Reloaded/Revolutions version, and not the original version). Smith is completely out of control - he had copies of himself copying himself all over the place. There's no reason why you couldn't just start with some copies on the field if you paid the points for them.

If we really wanted to get literal with the Reloaded/Revolution Smith theme, the last Smith would not be able to be destroyed while Neo was still on the board. As long as Neo is still there and his love for Trinity exists, Smith will continue to replicate and come back in an effort to balance the equation out.

Balantai December 29th, 2010 05:33 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Let's wait for Pumpkinking to post his first draft to see which version he's looking to create. I understand it's the holiday so there's no hurry. :D

Taeblewalker December 29th, 2010 10:15 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Agreed.

Pumpkin_King December 30th, 2010 12:11 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Wow, has it been interesting watching people geek out about the Matrix. :D

I'm definitely leaning towards the mid-to-end-game Smith where he disconnects himself, and is testing the limits of his powers. Therefore, (though the suggested ways he would work as literally every kind of unit that exists were facinating) I think he would work best as a 4-person Unique Squad. Here's my draft.

Agent Smith
The Matrix
Sci-Fi
Vydar? Utgar? Valkrill?


Program
Unique Squad
Agent
Relentless (I put Relentless because it is his pursuit of Neo that is a large part of his corruption and fall. Feel free to argue.)
Size: Medium 5

Life: 1
Move: 5
Range: 6
Attack: 3
Defense: 3

Replication Subroutine
When an Agent Smith destroys an adjacent small or mediumfigure, you may place a previously destroyed Agent Smith on the space the figure occupied. (This seemed to be the cleanest version of this ability that I could see. It may not be *perfectly* movie-accurate, but it's a good balance between unpredictability and usefulness. Should it have a restriction on the number of Smiths on the board at once, or does the fact that he's a unique squad take care of that?)

Unplugged
After revealing an Order Marker for any figure you control, you may instead take a turn with Agent Smith. (I really honestly liked this ability. It's simple, clean, and makes your opponent feel uneasy.)

Stealth Dodge - When Agent Smith is attacked by a non-adjacent figure, one shield will block all damage. (I'm still iffy on this; Stealth Dodge is the simplest, but I think more could be done here. Maybe add Counter Strike as well?)

Points: ???

mac122 December 30th, 2010 12:30 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Nice!

Replication Subroutine
IMO, Unique Squad eliminates the need to place a restriction on the number of Smiths.

Unplugged
Sounds good.

Stealth Dodge
I could see adding a Counter Strike, but it may add too much to the cost. As it stands, Agent Smith is already a 4-person Krav Maga squad (with a bit less range and movement) with 2 other great abilities. IMO, we are already looking at 140+ for the cost.

killercactus December 30th, 2010 08:19 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
If you like Unique Squad, PK, then let's go with it. I agree that him being a Unique Squad means there doesn't need to be a restriction of the number of Smith's out there.

I know he's an Agent, but I really feel like he should be Valkrill. If it was original, plain old Agent Smith from the Matrix, he would be Vydar. As "unplugged" Smith, he's really just chaos, which seems to fit into Valkrill.

I think I'm OK with Relentless for his personality - it seems to fit him very well and, since he's a squad, we don't have to worry about Death Knight bonding breaking him. One thing we do have to worry about though is Khosumet - he'll be able to boost Smith's attack when he's adjacent and, with Stealth Dodge, 6 range and 4 figures, that has the potential to be really strong. Khosumet is so bad though that I think I can look past that.

Although I know it's thematic that Smith should be able to copy himself onto anyone, do we really want him to be copying himself onto his own figures? I could see an Agent Smith army with some Ashigaru Yari just chilling out waiting to be converted into Smiths when one dies.

I feel like he should be faster somehow. He flies in the movies (since Neo does), and he's really fast even when he's not flying. I'm pretty sure if Agent Smith and Marcus Decimus Gallus had a footrace, I know where my money is going. I'd say add Flying (though that puts 4 powers on the card and Flying isn't short. What about the C3G Flying symbol? If we're gonna go that route, he probably should have Super Strength, too) or bump his move to 6/7.

That ends my normal review of the card. If you dont mind reading some more Matrix geeked out points, open the spoiler tab:

Spoiler Alert!

Lamaclown December 30th, 2010 08:35 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I think that is a very clean and elegant design, PK. The abilities we discussed were very complex and I think you did a good job of going with simpler yet still thematic mechanics.

I am with KC on his speed though. I would picture him as a little faster than average.

I also think that he would fit well in Valkrill's army since Valkrill seems, at this point, more representative of chaos. Agent Smith didn't march to anyone's drummer but his own in the later movies which is ant-thetical for an agent so I don't think the break from the traditional Agent/Vydar match-up is a bad or unwarranted thing.

I've gone back and forth on whether or not Smith should be able to copy himself onto friendly units. My final thought is... well, my almost final thought is... ok, I'm still not sure. I need to think more on this. I'm on the fence so a good argument from either point of view would probably convince me.


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