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-   -   Decision 2016 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=53250)

keglo December 7th, 2016 07:30 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 2124315)
If food stamps could be used to buy beer, you would not have any trouble seeing it for what it is. It would mean government funds were being used to buy beer for people. The fact that someone was given a voucher that bought the beer, and chose beer over milk, wouldn't change that.

Money is support. The fact that the money goes through an intermediary does not change how this is working. The government would be supporting religious institutions.

I do not think that your analogy works at all. It is not a choice of milk vs. beer. The government is giving vouchers for beer. It is ok if they spend that voucher on Budweiser. They just damn well better not spend it on Amish beer.

Hahma December 7th, 2016 08:14 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
For those more intimately familiar with the vouchers, do they pay all the costs of that student at either type of school, or are they only a partial subsidy. Meaning, would the parents still have to pay the balance of a tuition to the Christian school, and would the state still pay a portion of the public school for that student?

Dad_Scaper December 7th, 2016 08:55 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
There is a shoe store that sells only white shoes and black shoes. The government is barred from interfering with the market for white shoes. If the government gives people money to go into that store to buy whatever shoes they want, the government is meddling in the market for white shoes.

If you'd like, you can just pronounce that you are ok with government support for religious schools, despite the constitution. Then we can agree to disagree. But your current position does not appear supportable.

Swamper December 7th, 2016 09:25 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 2124315)
If food stamps could be used to buy beer, you would not have any trouble seeing it for what it is. It would mean government funds were being used to buy beer for people. The fact that someone was given a voucher that bought the beer, and chose beer over milk, wouldn't change that.

Money is support. The fact that the money goes through an intermediary does not change how this is working. The government would be supporting religious institutions.

The way I see it, the government is not responsible for choosing to buy the beer. The individual is. There's personal choice and responsibility there, and that's what matters. If the government is giving the same amount of money (based on protocol and what not) to each person, then the government is within their bounds and acting fairly. What the people then decide to do with that money is completely on them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2124341)
There is a shoe store that sells only white shoes and black shoes. The government is barred from interfering with the market for white shoes. If the government gives people money to go into that store to buy whatever shoes they want, the government is meddling in the market for white shoes.

If you'd like, you can just pronounce that you are ok with government support for religious schools, despite the constitution. Then we can agree to disagree. But your current position does not appear supportable.

Again, personal choice. I don't think the freedom of religion clause works as a reason against school vouchers as long as the government isn't placing restrictions on what religious schools the vouchers can be used at.

Swamper December 7th, 2016 09:27 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hahma (Post 2124338)
For those more intimately familiar with the vouchers, do they pay all the costs of that student at either type of school, or are they only a partial subsidy. Meaning, would the parents still have to pay the balance of a tuition to the Christian school, and would the state still pay a portion of the public school for that student?

From my understanding, students would get a voucher worth, say, 500 dollars. They can take that 500 bucks to whichever school they want. If they go to a public school, the 500 dollars is added to the budget. If they go to a religious school, the 500 goes towards tuition. If tuition is 1000 dollars, the parents are still responsible for 500 dollars of tuition.

There's lots of different voucher ideas out there, but that's the one I support and think makes the most sense.

Dad_Scaper December 7th, 2016 09:37 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
You've said yourself, Swamper, that the community you're in is homogenous in some ways. I wonder how many faiths would support schools in your neighborhood? How many elementary schools, other than the public ones, might we see? And what religion would each be associated with?

Swamper December 7th, 2016 09:43 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2124349)
You've said yourself, Swamper, that the community you're in is homogenous in some ways. I wonder how many faiths would support schools in your neighborhood? How many elementary schools, other than the public ones, might we see? And what religion would each be associated with?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. In my town in particular, we have a private christian school and a catholic school in the next town over. If we had vouchers, I imagine that there wouldn't be any new religious schools built. The existing ones might expand though.

I know every place is different though, so I figure each area will have a unique mix of schools.

Dad_Scaper December 7th, 2016 10:04 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Ok. So in your town, parents could send their kids to the public school(s) (the red shoes) or to the one Christian school. Not to a Jewish school or a Hindu school, or to a Lutheran or Mormon or whatever school, but to the one school of the one denomination in your town. Or, assuming they could arrange transportation, they might also choose the Catholic school in a town nearby, but let's not assume that transportation is easy for everybody. I know it isn't for me, and my kids take the bus. So transportation is not a gimme, but let's say those are the two schools.

Would you agree that as a practical matter, in your community, the choice would be between (1) a public school and (2) one or, at a stretch, two Christian schools?

Swamper December 7th, 2016 10:12 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Right. In my town, speaking practically, those are the choices available.

Hahma December 7th, 2016 10:14 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Back to that Carrier deal on Indiana for a second. As it was, it didn't seem like a great precedent to set with paying our tax dollars. But my buddy at work just told me something more troubling.

He said his dad read it in the paper, and his wife, who is a school superintendent just got back from a conference in Indianapolis. Apparently, the money to keep some jobs at Carrier will come from the school budget. That's something that was being discussed at the conference, though certainly not the reason for the conference as that was planned well ahead.

Indiana is one of the worst states in the country for nee teachers and teacher retention. Pence didn't want to join with federal school requirements and spent millions to get another system in place and it was screwed up. It also screwed up the school grading system, the one that grades schools for funding. He pretty much has been bad for education in Indiana.

So, I'm really not impressed by the Carrier deal, and certainly nervous for education in general.

Dad_Scaper December 7th, 2016 10:15 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Ok. White shoes or black shoes, two choices. I think we understand each other.

Swamper December 7th, 2016 10:21 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2124358)
Ok. White shoes or black shoes, two choices. I think we understand each other.

I don't see how that disqualifies vouchers. More choice is a good thing. Even in my specific town, speaking practically for some families (like mine) there's only one choice. At least with vouchers there's two choices.

What if my town gets an influx of Muslims? With the voucher system, they could theoretically set up a Muslim school and have their kid's education money follow them there.


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