Heroscapers

Heroscapers (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/index.php)
-   Other Games (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=19)
-   -   Diplomacy (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=53767)

scorpiusx April 27th, 2020 06:35 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375698)

I mean yeah sure, Trieste could have been lost, but why would you have thought Trieste would have been exposed and you'd make a play for it.? You would have just assumed it was protected.


Eh, if France suspected that I wanted to push for a solo, then wouldn't that have been the optimal move for me to make there, followed by creating a slew of fleets in England, (which I was preparing to do anyway?)


By protecting Trieste with Albania, he reduces his chance of a solo, while massively increasing his odds of the 2 way draw. With perfect hindsight you can say that maybe he could have risked it, but it would have in fact been a risk on either end.


I feel like kevindola and I are both satisfied and content with the joint victory we attained together. We both had some opportunities where we could have risked going for the solo win, but were more comfortable with our joint victory than potentially losing the game outright. I just don't like the narrative where France "should" have won a solo game but for some tactical blunders or some sort of generosity when I was equally capable of risking things for a win if I was bloodthirsty.


-scorp

scorpiusx April 27th, 2020 06:42 PM

Re: Conclusion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375709)
Not sure I know what you mean, are you being specific about anything or anyone?


Think of it as a solo Diplomacy win = home run. It is the big splash play, huge accomplishment, super satisfying and definite run. Obviously better than simply getting on base.


But in the end, if a batter gets on base period, they have done their job and were successful at their job. It might not have been as great as a home run obviously, but getting on base is the most important part.


If you have a batter that swings the bat as hard as he can every time, going for home runs every time, then he is going to hit them more than the guy that is trying to simply get on base. But he i also going to strike out a whole lot more.


Basically, getting on base is surviving the game. If you manage not to get eliminated, you have in essence won the game. The fewer players that win, the more bases you run before the next batter comes up to swing.


Playing to win vs playing not to lose, if you will.


-scorp

Kinseth April 27th, 2020 06:46 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpiusx (Post 2375712)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375698)

I mean yeah sure, Trieste could have been lost, but why would you have thought Trieste would have been exposed and you'd make a play for it.? You would have just assumed it was protected.


Eh, if France suspected that I wanted to push for a solo, then wouldn't that have been the optimal move for me to make there, followed by creating a slew of fleets in England, (which I was preparing to do anyway?)


By protecting Trieste with Albania, he reduces his chance of a solo, while massively increasing his odds of the 2 way draw. With perfect hindsight you can say that maybe he could have risked it, but it would have in fact been a risk on either end.


I feel like kevindola and I are both satisfied and content with the joint victory we attained together. We both had some opportunities where we could have risked going for the solo win, but were more comfortable with our joint victory than potentially losing the game outright. I just don't like the narrative where France "should" have won a solo game but for some tactical blunders or some sort of generosity when I was equally capable of risking things for a win if I was bloodthirsty.


-scorp

If France is going for it, he is already risking losing. So therefore, leaving Trieste slightly exposed, which would not be expected. Trieste is essentially locked up, there is no reason you would think that England would make a stab at it. So the risk is basically minimal.

But if he knew your moves like you mentioned, and I don't think going for the win is Bloodthirsty at all. No one would be upset at anyone for trying to win.

kevindola April 27th, 2020 06:56 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
I mean I was VERY worried about Trieste. In the spring of that final year, France had proposed moves that would give him a solo by taking Trieste in the fall (he proposed the move to ALB, and that he take SIL and BOH that spring to setup a stalemate), so it was at the forefront of my mind, since I didn't have a support unit in place yet for Trieste.

It may have been unintentional, I don't know, but his spring move requests would have guaranteed him a fall solo at Trieste. So yeah, I was going to guard Trieste that fall....

scorpiusx April 27th, 2020 07:02 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375714)

If France is going for it, he is already risking losing. So therefore, leaving Trieste slightly exposed, which would not be expected. Trieste is essentially locked up, there is no reason you would think that England would make a stab at it. So the risk is basically minimal.

But if he knew your moves like you mentioned, and I don't think going for the win is Bloodthirsty at all. No one would be upset at anyone for trying to win.


So I can't tell if you're being willfully obtuse here or not? Let me explain.


First of all, by bloodthirst I don't mean people being upset at him. Obviously it is just a game, and I'm not going to be irl upset with kevindola for stabbing me when he has the opportunity. By being bloodthirsty I mean opting for the solo win when it may very well cost him the game altogether. If he goes for Albania to Greece with ION support, that increases his chance of winning the game in a solo IF IT SUCCEEDS. It also increases his chances of losing the game outright if I do decide to go something like:


A BUD - TRI
A SER s A BUD - TRI
A VIE s A BUD -TRI


As England, this would be the clear move combination if I decided to try and push for the solo. Even if I suspect that France will hold Trieste as I suspect that he will, without Albanian support he does not take Greece from Austria, and therefore is at only 16 centers. I then create three fleets in my three home centers and rush them toward the west, intent on capturing one of Brest, Spain, Portugal, or Tunis, while also using my pre-existing convoy line to funnel over my two armies to defend Black Sea.


Naturally with Austria having an army here instead of a French fleet though, I do risk a greater chance of losing the game to a French solo here with the Austrian army's ability to push into my territory and mess up my plans. Ultimately I would rather not risk it in the position I was, so instead felt France would be good on his word and we would create a final stalemate position, (Which I was correct in assuming!)



But if France does fear a solo, then that little trick of A ALB - GRE while keeping his fleet in ION potentially costs him the game immediately.


Does that clear things up?



-scorp

Zetsubo April 27th, 2020 07:52 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kevindola (Post 2374888)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetsubo (Post 2374825)
Congrats France and England!

Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpiusx (Post 2374634)
Italy: @Zetsubo

Indeed

I wasn't much of a fan of starting in the middle of everyone, but I tried to make the best of it. France never seemed to have an opening I could exploit, and I was worried about Turkey and Russia teaming up against me if I took out Austria. Perhaps I made some mistakes, but that's ok cause it was a fun game!


Quote:

Originally Posted by megasilver (Post 2374687)
But all in all, Italy was the most consistent ally I had throughout

Thanks! But to be fair, I tried to keep my 'allies' in check by leaking bits of their plans to their neighbors, hoping to find someway to break through. Still didn't work out for me though.

I think you played well Zets! Hopefully no hard feelings for my stabbery. The only thing I would suggest, and perhaps it couldn't be helped, is that I know you had trouble getting back to people timely. That made some coordination hard, and I know that for me, when I had been thinking hardest about stabbing England (when he built that London fleet), it was tough because I didn't feel like I could get the best plans made with you.

Yeah things got busy for me during the game so I kept forgetting to take the time to communicate effectively. For future games, I'll make sure to keep communiction's flowing.

Kinseth April 27th, 2020 08:01 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
[quote=scorpiusx;2375723]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375714)
As England, this would be the clear move combination if I decided to try and push for the solo. Even if I suspect that France will hold Trieste as I suspect that he will, without Albanian support he does not take Greece from Austria, and therefore is at only 16 centers. I then create three fleets in my three home centers and rush them toward the west, intent on capturing one of Brest, Spain, Portugal, or Tunis, while also using my pre-existing convoy line to funnel over my two armies to defend Black Sea.

Does that clear things up?



-scorp

Clear as mud!

I don't think anyone has called me obtuse before, been watching a little shawshank redemption lately?

ION s Alb - Gre succeeds without your support. So this talk of him going to 16 is incorrect.

As for you attacking Trieste, I mentioned it was a risk and am clearly aware that had he only left it to be defended by 1 unit, that he could risk losing.

My point is, that it clearly looked like to you that he had Trieste defended, and even made sure in his diplomacy to say it was defended by requesting different moves. (I cannot see the diplomacy, so taking KD's word on this one.) I don't know why you would have attacked him at trieste for a random small chance he left it exposed, and completely risked the game.(At that point, is KD going to settle for the 2 way draw, maybe.) So my point is/was, the risk was super minimal by what he gains from going for it. (Plus the hindsight also shows it true.)

I personally don't think diplomacy ends with you Scorp when the game ends, gamesmanship?

I think I will just end the exercise with you and look forward to the next game. After all took my licks this game, having my 3 game "winning" streak snapped, time to get back on the scoreboard!

scorpiusx April 27th, 2020 08:09 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375744)

ION s Alb - Gre succeeds without your support. So this talk of him going to 16 is incorrect.


It obviously succeeds without my support on its own. What I am saying is that if I decided to try for the solo, that Albanian army would not be defending Trieste, and I would end up winning the game straight up by capturing Trieste. If France defends Trieste with Albania to stifle that attack, then he does not take Greece and is left at 16 centers. My apologies if I made that unclear.


-scorp

Kinseth April 27th, 2020 08:14 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpiusx (Post 2375748)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375744)

ION s Alb - Gre succeeds without your support. So this talk of him going to 16 is incorrect.


It obviously succeeds without my support on its own. What I am saying is that if I decided to try for the solo, that Albanian army would not be defending Trieste, and I would end up winning the game straight up by capturing Trieste. If France defends Trieste with Albania to stifle that attack, then he does not take Greece and is left at 16 centers. My apologies if I made that unclear.


-scorp

I am fully aware you win the game if you attack Trieste and he did not defend it with a total of 3 units. I have said that it was a risk several times already. My point is, I don't know why you would ever do it, meaning - Why would you ever think it would be exposed.

scorpiusx April 27th, 2020 08:17 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375744)
I personally don't think diplomacy ends with you Scorp when the game ends, gamesmanship?

I think I will just end the exercise with you and look forward to the next game. After all took my licks this game, having my 3 game "winning" streak snapped, time to get back on the scoreboard!


I don't know what the former statement is alluding to.


And I am fine with the game result speaking for itself if you'd prefer. I just don't like the legitimacy of the outcome being called into question, as if @kevindola was just some charitable Fairy Godmother who gifted me the joint victory out of the goodness of his heart.


-scorp

scorpiusx April 27th, 2020 08:26 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375751)

I am fully aware you win the game if you attack Trieste and he did not defend it with a total of 3 units. I have said that it was a risk several times already. My point is, I don't know why you would ever do it, meaning - Why would you ever think it would be exposed.


If I am planning an immediate stab of France, then I lose nothing by going with that maneuver. With me still supporting SER from RUM, I have no risk of losing any of those crucial BUD, VIE, or SER centers, so I might as well make that attack just in case kevindola decides to get creative. Unless if you think it would be better to let France take Greece and THEN stab after the Winter if I planned to solo?


-scorp

Kinseth April 27th, 2020 08:47 PM

Re: Diplomacy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scorpiusx (Post 2375753)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2375744)
I personally don't think diplomacy ends with you Scorp when the game ends, gamesmanship?

I think I will just end the exercise with you and look forward to the next game. After all took my licks this game, having my 3 game "winning" streak snapped, time to get back on the scoreboard!


I don't know what the former statement is alluding to.


And I am fine with the game result speaking for itself if you'd prefer. I just don't like the legitimacy of the outcome being called into question, as if @kevindola was just some charitable Fairy Godmother who gifted me the joint victory out of the goodness of his heart.


-scorp

I don't think it was charitable, I think KD was truly fearful. I just think it was there and KD didn't see it. But I recognize we are also viewing it as hindsight 20/20 in a world where you didn't attack Trieste. (which is what actually happened :) )

Post game scrutiny is part of the game, go back and read some of what @Ranior was giving me in previous games.

I rather enjoy it though, who knew I'd like talking this much about a game that I just got by butt kicked in :)


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:43 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2022 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.