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quozl September 6th, 2018 01:48 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Japes, I get what you're saying. I apologize for bringing up Kang since it seems he's been brought up to you before.

Here's the situation: we need to make a ruling on figures being able to use powers (by default) while they're not on the battlefield. Are you willing to say they don't work sometimes (like when Kang has them) and do work sometimes (like in a VDO)?

japes September 6th, 2018 02:07 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2219338)
Japes, I get what you're saying. I apologize for bringing up Kang since it seems he's been brought up to you before.

Here's the situation: we need to make a ruling on figures being able to use powers (by default) while they're not on the battlefield. Are you willing to say they don't work sometimes (like when Kang has them) and do work sometimes (like in a VDO)?

First off, apology not needed. I just wanted it clear that I see the two issues as distinctly different. So to answer your first inquiry...
My opinion is that by default powers shouldn't work when a figure is not on the battlefield and we word the ones that should to say that specifically in the power. And yes I understand that technically that means when they are on cards. So I'd be in favor of ruling by default powers on cards not on the battlefield should be nullified (unless that power specifically states otherwise)

That is one distinct issue and my opinion on that issue.

Now in the other matter...

But in nearly all instances the thematic reasons a figure is on a card is either death or they are in another dimension/not in the immediate area. However for VDO thematically they are still in the immediate area, they are in whatever location the VDO is in. So if Mr. Fantastic is in the Fantasticar with the others were gathered around the car, thematically he should still get to roll for his leadership power and let the others take to the fight. But I agree this could causes serious competitive issues.

quozl September 6th, 2018 02:13 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Thematically, I'm on board. However, making entering a VDO an exception to the default powers not working on the battlefield rule means we need to make changes to the VDO rules so they are not just portable shields. I am not opposed to changing the VDO rules but I would like to see the proposed changes.

Yodaking September 6th, 2018 02:16 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by japes (Post 2219334)
Who's saying he's driving. Most VDO's have multiple passengers.

That really is a good point. So it looks like now we need to draft rules that specify which figure is driving vs. which figure is sitting shotgun vs which figure is sitting in the back seat when multiple figures are put on a VDO card. The driver can't use any powers but can move the car when activated, the guy sitting shotgun can't move the car but can use their Shotgun SA if they want to, but only on figures on the right side of the card and not the left, then the guy sitting in back can fire a APR out the back window at anyone behind the car, but not at figures in front of the car. Each VDO card should really have a diagram on it showing each available seat, then you place your figure in the open seat you want them to occupy. Each seat would then have a different set of rules governing what they can and can not do while in the VDO. Then when someone shoots at the card, it's be easier to determine who might get hit by a bullet if we know where each person is sitting and what part of the car (ie. occupied hex) was targeted with a machine gun. This could really be a game all onto itself, a C3G Demolition Derby spin off game. It'll make millions, millions I say.

Yodaking September 6th, 2018 05:11 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I didn't mean to shut down the thread here, I was just being sarcastic. Feel free to completely ignore me on this topic as I have never used the VDO rules, just the vehicle cards as DOs, and it's starting too look like I'll just keep it that way.

quozl September 6th, 2018 05:17 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I'm loving your sarcasm, YK, and I'd love to hear more from you about revising the VDO rules if you're willing. You make great points that nobody is going to use these rules if they're cumbersome at all. We need to keep things simple.

japes September 6th, 2018 05:33 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2219405)
I didn't mean to shut down the thread here, I was just being sarcastic. Feel free to completely ignore me on this topic as I have never used the VDO rules, just the vehicle cards as DOs, and it's starting too look like I'll just keep it that way.

Yeah I got busy and never came back to this thread. Nothing against you or your post. I was going to say C3GKart for the game title.

I got the humor in the post.

This is making me want the Batmobile and Lawmaster to be figures and not VDOs. But who knows, maybe we figure it out.

Lazy Orang September 6th, 2018 05:41 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Tornado's already said the Lawmaster should be a figure. Given how often the Batmobile is automated... I'm in favour of that being one too.

Tornado September 6th, 2018 06:34 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Yeah, waiting to see how it plays out for the Lawmaster but still leaning towards uncommon hero.

Ronin September 6th, 2018 06:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by japes (Post 2219419)
This is making me want the Batmobile and Lawmaster to be figures and not VDOs. But who knows, maybe we figure it out.

What change do you want to see? What direction would you have this take going forward? Given that 'no special powers' was part of the understanding of the rules from the start here, did something change for you? Or had you just missed some of the prior discussions?

(Not trying to take you to task or anything, but I do want to clarify what you think needs to be figured out)

IAmBatman September 6th, 2018 08:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Woo boy, ya'll gave me a lot to catch up on this one.

It seems like the poll was jumping the gun a bit and we have some stuff to figure out and hash out first. No worries and no reason to get too worked up (not saying any of you are, but my way of saying I think we should be able to salvage this still).

Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2219281)
Yeah, I was noticing some confusion there. We need to settle that first.

I think I snagged the wrong quote here, but this is in reference to settling the debate on whether special powers work when you're in play but not on the battlefield or not (btw, call that vote and update based on "in play" to help settle that! :-) ).

I agree completely that we shouldn't get too far ahead of ourselves in this thread because anything we decide on here is ultimately going to be dependent on that ruling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by japes (Post 2219304)
I agree with your second part but the first one is back to my original concern. We are forcing a mechanic to maintain balance that's not even remotely thematic. Wolverine gets in a car and his healing factor no longer works?

Yeah, I'm not crazy about that. But I have some ideas to help figure out where to draw the line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2219331)
Yeah, I don't like the idea of the VDO's just being used as a shield. The penalty for jumping into a car to avoid a Armor Piercing Rocket is pretty weak, one 50/50 chance for a single W is nothing. I'd change the VDO rules to make being inside a car that is destroyed a much more dangerous proposition if you want to discourage people from drafting them just to use it as shields or safe space.

I think this is a hugely important point and I don't want it to be lost. I'd be in favor of something nasty like being in a car when it's destroyed equaling two auto wounds. I'm not drafting that to hide Mister Fantastic in at that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2219348)
Thematically, I'm on board. However, making entering a VDO an exception to the default powers not working on the battlefield rule means we need to make changes to the VDO rules so they are not just portable shields. I am not opposed to changing the VDO rules but I would like to see the proposed changes.

This whole process will involve changing the VDO rules in order to make VDOs draftable. This is a bigger change than anticipated, but not outside of the scope of this effort, so I think this makes sense and should be a given.

In addition to Yodaking's suggestion for increased penalty for being in a destroyed vehicle (which I think is hugely important as a balancing factor), I'd argue for one other scalpel use before we totally blow up any power uses inside of cars. I'd have to carefully study the overall impact of this idea, but I think it could help a lot with these concerns:

Order Markers represent intention in this game. A lot of the more powerful powers require you to reveal an Order Marker on a card to trigger them. Most factional hubs are tied to Order Marker reveals.

What if when you enter a vehicle, your Order Markers are transferred to that vehicle, and you only get them back when you leave the vehicle? Then we could alter the rules so that you couldn't get out of the vehicle the same turn you get into it, but that getting into or out of the vehicle would be instead of moving normally and moving/using the vehicle would require an Order Marker reveal on it?

We might have to make vehicles more strictly a part of your army to accomplish that, and not so easy to change hands, but I think that might be OK for balance as well.

japes September 7th, 2018 12:44 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2219446)
Quote:

Originally Posted by japes (Post 2219419)
This is making me want the Batmobile and Lawmaster to be figures and not VDOs. But who knows, maybe we figure it out.

What change do you want to see? What direction would you have this take going forward? Given that 'no special powers' was part of the understanding of the rules from the start here, did something change for you? Or had you just missed some of the prior discussions?

(Not trying to take you to task or anything, but I do want to clarify what you think needs to be figured out)

See this is the issue. I don't know what I'd want to see. Well I kind of do but I don't know if it works in any way. I'd like for this not to be a world full of manipulative rules lawyers so that people could just be reasonable and logical and know which powers should work in a car...but we all understand that's not the truth which is why we are here.

In a perfect world mr. Fantastic or professor X wouldn't lose their leadership ability in a car but also they shouldn't be able to hide in a car and not risk being hurt. I honestly don't have a solution which is why I'm frustrated as in my mind I'm feeling it's hopeless. I don't think it's hopeless bc together we've come up with some pretty cool stuff...I just feel that way now.

On your other part...I'm not sure when or why this stood out. I wasn't following along as well as I'd have liked early on but now that I don't feel obligated to read every post anymore I started paying more attention to things that I wanted to.


Also no worry Ronin. I know your not being like that. We all want to figure this out and you've put in a lot of work here.


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