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-   -   The Book of C3G Destructible Object Rules (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55039)

Ronin September 5th, 2018 09:27 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2219150)
If figures can't use special powers at all while in vehicles, will that really dull the desire to draft them? Or do you feel they bring enough else to the table?

I was under the impression that figures in vehicles couldn't use special powers back when I started testing - the Rip/Kang stuff didn't come up until mid-initial - and they definitely still felt draftable. It makes them inherently a little more niche, but it puts more focus on the mobility aspect and the vehicle's powers as opposed to the protection aspect.

IAmBatman September 5th, 2018 09:33 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I think that works. More of a sanity check than anything. I wanted to make sure that if we go in this direction we aren't tanking the whole VDO thing in general. :-)

Sounds good, though. If y'all can figure out just the right wording for this and if I retain time and sanity once I have my first set of papers in tomorrow, I'll put this next up for testing after I finish Psimon's initial.

dok September 6th, 2018 01:17 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2219151)
It makes them inherently a little more niche, but it puts more focus on the mobility aspect and the vehicle's powers as opposed to the protection aspect.

The goal in my mind would be to make it so that vehicles can be priced for competitive drafting based on these aspects. If we have to price them based on the assumption that Ozymandias and Mad Thinker are chilling out in the sports car, then those sorts of builds end up being the only way the vehicles are useful. If we dismantle that sort of combo then we let them be vehicles instead of a stationary containment pod.

Lazy Orang September 6th, 2018 04:54 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 2219108)
If we don't want the costs of these things to be driven by the ability to provide armor to support/bonding/passive power figures, then here are my suggestions:
  • Go through the the relevant powers of passive non-LOS support figures like Destiny, and probably Joker(I) and Ozy, and add a "while you control Destiny" to powers like probability manipulation. This sets it such that they can't use the powers unless the figure is physically on the battlefield.

I'd do this... it eliminates the ability to exploit them with Joker, Ozymandias, Destiny, while causing the minimum of collateral. I'd rather not gut too much - it kills a little too much theme and too much strategy to me, makes the game less interesting. I vote for using a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

Ronin September 6th, 2018 09:07 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2219196)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 2219108)
If we don't want the costs of these things to be driven by the ability to provide armor to support/bonding/passive power figures, then here are my suggestions:
  • Go through the the relevant powers of passive non-LOS support figures like Destiny, and probably Joker(I) and Ozy, and add a "while you control Destiny" to powers like probability manipulation. This sets it such that they can't use the powers unless the figure is physically on the battlefield.

I'd do this... it eliminates the ability to exploit them with Joker, Ozymandias, Destiny, while causing the minimum of collateral. I'd rather not gut too much - it kills a little too much theme and too much strategy to me, makes the game less interesting. I vote for using a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

Pretty sure dok meant that you'd have to implement both of his bullet points there, not either/or.

I'd rather have simpler vehicle rules that didn't hugely affect design space than make a bunch of card updates so that in the future we always have to work around vehicles when designing support powers.

That said, sure, let's poll it out.

A. Make card updates and vehicle rule updates necessary to allow figures to use special in vehicles
B. Bar special powers from being used by figures in vehicles

IAmBatman September 6th, 2018 09:11 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I'd lean towards B there, but would like a better idea of what the exact rules text would look like to see if there would be any unintended consequences and to see how clear and elegant it would be.

Since we'd be adding these to the existing designs as an augmentation, I'd rather the rules set bear most of the burden of eliminating competitive concerns.

Scapemage September 6th, 2018 09:12 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
B for sure. I don't see vehicles being used so often that they should need to be worked around for every card.

japes September 6th, 2018 09:29 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quick Question, I thought one of the reasons for doing this was for figures like Lady Blackhawk? If we negate Special Powers while they are in the vehicle...doesn't that sort of negate the reason for doing this? Would it be easier to just update her card to allow her to start with a VDO in her start zone?

Lazy Orang September 6th, 2018 09:31 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
A - lets not harm the richness of the game and options for strategic possibilities by keeping everything too sealed away. Scalpel, not sledgehammer.

Ronin September 6th, 2018 09:33 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by japes (Post 2219231)
Quick Question, I thought one of the reasons for doing this was for figures like Lady Blackhawk? If we negate Special Powers while they are in the vehicle...doesn't that sort of negate the reason for doing this? Would it be easier to just update her card to allow her to start with a VDO in her start zone?

Wouldn't be a hard negation, just a "figures occupying vehicles may not use special powers, unless otherwise specified." sort of thing. Same as how destroyed figures can't use special powers... Unless they can.

japes September 6th, 2018 09:59 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2219234)
Quote:

Originally Posted by japes (Post 2219231)
Quick Question, I thought one of the reasons for doing this was for figures like Lady Blackhawk? If we negate Special Powers while they are in the vehicle...doesn't that sort of negate the reason for doing this? Would it be easier to just update her card to allow her to start with a VDO in her start zone?

Wouldn't be a hard negation, just a "figures occupying vehicles may not use special powers, unless otherwise specified." sort of thing. Same as how destroyed figures can't use special powers... Unless they can.

Nothing in here specifies that it is otherwise allowed...

Quote:

ADEPT OPERATOR
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and moving a vehicle, you may move that vehicle one additional space. When rolling the 20-sided die for a vehicle that Lady Blackhawk occupies, you may add 2 to your roll.
If it's negated then it's useless and if we are going to edit her card to make it not nullified then wouldn't it be a easier process to just allow her to start with a VDO in her startzone? This just seems like a lot of hoops to jump through just to have figures that thematically use vehicles getting to use vehicles. Shouldn't those figures just start with that thematic vehicle the same way other figures start with regular DO? I'm starting to see why this hasn't happened sooner.

Ronin September 6th, 2018 10:07 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I guess I'm not seeing the big obstacle that you are. That's super-trivial wording stuff.

Tanking this and just going for figures that start with VDOs would be a much more painful process, and it would limit the ability to design VDOs that don't have some thematic figure that would start with them. (Which is part of the reason I'm doing this in the first place)


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