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-   -   Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31300)

Dysole October 25th, 2021 05:50 PM

Choices
 
There is the option to design one now and then the other the next time around since Will looks pretty standalone. Ranger's Cloak though has an annoying memory mechanic with the lack of visible hit zones (especially since it could last between rounds).

Their gameplay is actually pretty different from each other just based on the cards you have. (Halt is much more of a run and gun figure while you arguably want Will engaged to melee figures) I don't love giving either valiant but neither gives a 4th build something they can't already get elsewhere.

Might have more thoughts later but those are what I'm thinking after a first pass.

~Dysole, informationally

Knox October 28th, 2021 11:18 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I think I'll go with just designing Will for now. My thoughts with the personality would be that Will could change from valiant to resolute. Other options would be "precise" "loyal" and "mysterious." (Mysterious would be inventing a personality though).

I'm wondering if Ranger's cloak could somehow be changed in one of the following ways:
- If there are no revealed order markers on this card, Will Treaty has no visible hit zone...
- If Will Treaty's hit zone is partially obscured (from the vantage of a non-adjacent attacking figure) by a battlefield object (ruins, trees, glacier, bushes, battlements, etc.) or by terrain, Will Treaty is considered to have no visible hit zone (to that figure). Note that this does not apply if Will Treaty's hit zone is obscured by another figure.

The "or by terrain" part is optional. I'm open to adding or dropping that via playtesting

Thoughts?

P.S. for Halt I'm thinking Mysterious personality, and then replacing "like a son to me" with "expert tracker" which would just be "ignores difficult terrain" (e.g., heavy snow).

Shiftrex November 3rd, 2021 01:40 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
No revealed OMs = no hitzones is fun to me. Also keeps him safe in startzones.

I think partially obscured will be troublesome to judge and hard to define. If you're really attached to it could say: if any portion of "this figure name"'s histone is obscured then...

I think just sticking to the No OM = no hitzones is cleaner.

Ignoring difficult terrain is niche but very Ranger in terms of theme.

Knox November 11th, 2021 11:17 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiftrex (Post 2487460)
No revealed OMs = no hitzones is fun to me. Also keeps him safe in startzones.

I think partially obscured will be troublesome to judge and hard to define. If you're really attached to it could say: if any portion of "this figure name"'s histone is obscured then...

I think just sticking to the No OM = no hitzones is cleaner.

Ignoring difficult terrain is niche but very Ranger in terms of theme.

Yeah, I don't think "partially obscured" is something I was attached to. I was suggesting those as 2 different options. So no revealed OMs = no hitzone.

Yeah ignoring difficult terrain won't help the figure but it's one more fun thematic ability.

Strack9 November 26th, 2021 02:15 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Just stumbled on this thread and am inspired by the Ranger team.

- I agree with Shiftrex's "no OM = no hitzones" being clear and simple and fun.

- It might be worthwhile to limit/specify how many times Ranger's cloak can trigger movement and whether it's any move that triggers it or only during a turn. Moving multiple times vs. one figure in a squad and then potentially repeating 3 more times could really drag a turn out; especially if you have more than 1 ranger doing the same thing. (If there were Ranger's Cloaks on opposing teams you could even get an infinite chain of move, react, react, react . . . etc.)

-It might be nice if one could wait until their opponent was done moving and then make a one time move of 2, but it's hard for me to think of what that might look like since I can't think of an existing example of using the space between an opponent's Move/Attack phase. And then there's dealing with powers that happen after the move phase like Dragon Swoop. It might just be easier to tie the move to the opponent's attack phase to make sure it happens after their total move is done
Quote:

. . . The first time any figure you control is targeted for an attack on an opponent's turn, if there is an opponent's figure within 3 spaces of Will that was more than 3 spaces away from Will at the start of the turn, you may . . .
- You've got a different to-hit number for each Ranger so you could add "Ranger's Cloak 14(16)" to the power name.

Taeblewalker November 26th, 2021 02:17 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Thanks for joining the effort! We've put out a lot of great units; when I run games in Brooklyn we sometimes use the HoF units.

Knox December 3rd, 2021 05:03 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Here's my latest update:

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/85ygKJ5/Will-Treaty.jpg[/IMG]

https://i.ibb.co/7g6s15x/Halt-Ocarrick-1.jpg


I basically consider them comparable to Syvarris, although slightly better - improved mobility & survivability with slightly less range.

Taeblewalker December 3rd, 2021 08:44 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Ranger's Cloak is a great power; different than anything done before in HS (the closest existing powers would be Hide in Shadows, Cloud of Darkness, Lurk in Shadows and Smoke Powder 13) but fitting well into the canon. I wonder if he might be overpriced at 130, especially since he has no synergies with any other units, but overall he is a solid design.

Strack9 December 4th, 2021 07:49 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
What is the timing for Ranger's Cloak? can you interrupt anyone's turn? Can you do it at the end of the round?

Does the 'X' marker have to be on this card?

If the move is only going to happen once per round because of the 'X' order marker (and only one of your rangers will be able to do it) I could see a bigger number of move spaces being more useful, but not overpowered.

Knox December 4th, 2021 11:00 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Strack9 (Post 2492126)
What is the timing for Ranger's Cloak? can you interrupt anyone's turn? Can you do it at the end of the round?

Does the 'X' marker have to be on this card?

If the move is only going to happen once per round because of the 'X' order marker (and only one of your rangers will be able to do it) I could see a bigger number of move spaces being more useful, but not overpowered.

My thought was that it could happen at any time, including interrupting another players turn, but I'm not sure. The idea would be that it keeps the figure out of range of Cyprein or Templar. Do you have any ideas for how that could be expressed on the card in a way that's not confusing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taeblewalker (Post 2492106)
Ranger's Cloak is a great power; different than anything done before in HS (the closest existing powers would be Hide in Shadows, Cloud of Darkness, Lurk in Shadows and Smoke Powder 13) but fitting well into the canon. I wonder if he might be overpriced at 130, especially since he has no synergies with any other units, but overall he is a solid design.

The points are going to depend on playtesting because the abilities are so unique. I think the abilities are set up in such a way that these units could be some of the best kiting figures in the game - like a more powerful version of Krav Maga (except with only 2 attacks instead of 3) because of the movement flexibility rangers cloak gives. For that reason I could see as high as 140 points for Will.

However, I could see a world in which their action inefficiency (only 2 attacks, no bonding) and low life/defense really inhibits them and brings Will as low as 90 points, and Halt as low as 80.

I'm expecting the sweet spot to be between 100-130 but that's pending playtesting.

As I theoryscape this, you'd probably only put 1 ranger in your army and you'd typically try to keep the "3" and "X" order markers on them every round once they've claimed height to take advantage of rangers cloak. That should make them really annoying and difficult to take down unless your opponent has units who can fly/disengage past your screen. But it also limits the potential of a Ranger totally devestating the opponents army - OMs 1 & 2 need to be on other units (I could see Knights of Weston as really good here) to keep ranger's cloak operative and build up a screen and ensure the ranger doesn't get taken down by opposing range with their mere 2 defense. When it gets to endgame, the Ranger will be deadly (if it survives) but will have lost the benefits of rangers cloak so it should be fairly even.

Confred December 11th, 2021 11:05 PM

Re: Choices
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2486493)
There is the option to design one now and then the other the next time around since Will looks pretty standalone.
~Dysole, informationally

I second this.

I like to think of phantom cards : Assume they exist and thus consider them in synergy . for example if we know the guy not being designed is more melee based, we don't have to design the melee power, but create a synergy that would theoretically enhance that.

I do this with scenarios also. There are aspects of a character that are part of their story but don't make the cut. For the scenario they indeed have this ability. In Master Set 3, there is a darkness scenario where players have torches. There could be a scenario for John Wick where coins come into play, etc etc.

Part of the fun - also! has you wanting to stay on so you can get to developing the next.

Confred December 11th, 2021 11:08 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Knox (Post 2486767)
I think I'll go with just designing Will for now. My thoughts with the personality would be that Will could change from valiant to resolute. Other options would be "precise" "loyal" and "mysterious." (Mysterious would be inventing a personality though).

I'm wondering if Ranger's cloak could somehow be changed in one of the following ways:
- If there are no revealed order markers on this card, Will Treaty has no visible hit zone...
- If Will Treaty's hit zone is partially obscured (from the vantage of a non-adjacent attacking figure) by a battlefield object (ruins, trees, glacier, bushes, battlements, etc.) or by terrain, Will Treaty is considered to have no visible hit zone (to that figure). Note that this does not apply if Will Treaty's hit zone is obscured by another figure.

The "or by terrain" part is optional. I'm open to adding or dropping that via playtesting

Thoughts?

P.S. for Halt I'm thinking Mysterious personality, and then replacing "like a son to me" with "expert tracker" which would just be "ignores difficult terrain" (e.g., heavy snow).

It appears you are refencing powers not posted here. I see you included a link, but please, do repost the powers here.

No visible hit zones based on OM is easier, and thus probably the winner overall - I do like the other, but I imagine it being a sucker to pin down correctly with words.


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