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-   -   The Book of C3G Destructible Object Rules (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=55039)

johnny139 November 24th, 2019 05:44 PM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Book looks great! I'll give it a final readthrough soon and vote her through. :up:

Soundwarp SG-1 November 25th, 2019 12:36 AM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Seems fine to me, but I'm not a proofreader so I'm not your huckleberry for catching typos and such.

yea

Ronin November 25th, 2019 08:57 AM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Quick-and-dirty notes (low laptop battery, so not double-checking myself on anything or doing a lot of formatting):

-Drafting
--Start Zone? (should be caps, I think)
--Extraneous period in third bullet point (Army. Card.)

-Entering
--Army Card (card should be capitalized) right at the start of the section
--Probably shouldn't capitalize the list of sizes
--I'd spell out the numbers in "but only has 1 figure occupying it, a 2nd figure can enter that car"
--As far as "specific entrances/exits marked on the figure itself", just to be super duper clear... does having a door on the sculpt count? Picture suggests no. So what would that look like?

-Occupying
--Allowing to move to the driver's space at the cost of one space of movement.... this is the vehicle's movement, presumably? I'd rewrite this sentence either way, because switching the driver with another figure isn't quite normal movement.

-P&FC
--Hmm, how will we mark clear sight openings for a car with an open top? Not really a problem for this rulebook, just something I've been thinking about.

-Moving
--We mention that VDOs never take LEAs here, but it might be worth rewording that to mention that the reason they don't is because they're never considered engaged? I think that'd be worth emphasizing, and it provides more context if someone quickly looks the movement rules up.

-Exiting
--Engagement within VDOs is mentioned for the first time here... I think it's a logical extrapolation of what's mentioned in Occupying, but it should be specifically mentioned in Occupying for clarity. (Especially because getting enemy figures into the same vehicle will be a departure for anyone who played the old version of the VDO rules)

-Destroying
--I think "no LEAs" should be spelled out for the figures that were inside the car, as well as the ones droping off the top. (Given that they can be engaged inside the car)

Looking real sharp here, guys!

IAmBatman November 25th, 2019 11:51 AM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2335500)
Quick-and-dirty notes (low laptop battery, so not double-checking myself on anything or doing a lot of formatting):

-Drafting
--Start Zone? (should be caps, I think)
--Extraneous period in third bullet point (Army. Card.)

-Entering
--Army Card (card should be capitalized) right at the start of the section
--Probably shouldn't capitalize the list of sizes
--I'd spell out the numbers in "but only has 1 figure occupying it, a 2nd figure can enter that car"
--As far as "specific entrances/exits marked on the figure itself", just to be super duper clear... does having a door on the sculpt count? Picture suggests no. So what would that look like?

-Occupying
--Allowing to move to the driver's space at the cost of one space of movement.... this is the vehicle's movement, presumably? I'd rewrite this sentence either way, because switching the driver with another figure isn't quite normal movement.

-P&FC
--Hmm, how will we mark clear sight openings for a car with an open top? Not really a problem for this rulebook, just something I've been thinking about.

-Moving
--We mention that VDOs never take LEAs here, but it might be worth rewording that to mention that the reason they don't is because they're never considered engaged? I think that'd be worth emphasizing, and it provides more context if someone quickly looks the movement rules up.

-Exiting
--Engagement within VDOs is mentioned for the first time here... I think it's a logical extrapolation of what's mentioned in Occupying, but it should be specifically mentioned in Occupying for clarity. (Especially because getting enemy figures into the same vehicle will be a departure for anyone who played the old version of the VDO rules)

-Destroying
--I think "no LEAs" should be spelled out for the figures that were inside the car, as well as the ones droping off the top. (Given that they can be engaged inside the car)

Looking real sharp here, guys!

Fixed the ones I could in the SP. The ones I put in red were already fine in the SP, so must be in the booklet specifically.

For the portions in blue:

1. I changed the text to indicate that it was marked both on the figure and on the Army Card. We'll have to figure out how exactly we want to do that when we get to VDOs that do that (The TARDIS may be the first) but that should at least give us the opening we need to do so without making the specifics a "today problem."

2. I imagine we'd have to add a third, overhead hitzone for ones that are open air. I find those mostly annoying due to the fact that, thematically, you should be able to see a figure that's in an open air vehicle, so probably not something I'll be doing much myself. But I understand that things like motorcycles and convertible sports cars are likely to happen.

3. I understand where you're coming from, but ... Occupying has this line currently: "Figures occupying a VDO are considered adjacent to all other figures occupying that VDO and to the VDO itself, but are never considered adjacent to or engaged with figures outside of the VDO."

I don't think it's unreasonable for us to ask users to know that two enemy figures adjacent to each other are considered engaged. I feel it'd be awkward to add essentially a definition of engagement to that clause.

Great notes overall! Thanks, Ronin. :-)

japes November 25th, 2019 06:05 PM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Should be up to date now.

IAmBatman November 25th, 2019 07:25 PM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Sweet! You rock.

A3n November 25th, 2019 08:17 PM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
DRAFTING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
...
{missing "in"}
A DO included in a player's army is considered like any other figure in that player's army, with a few key exceptions:

{This confuses me...}
• A DO is not considered under a player's control, unless it is a VDO occupied by a figure in your army.
{I thought that was the idea of draftable DOs. You having control of them? Why else are we making them draftable?}


EXAMPLE 1: Vehicle Card
{missing fullstop}
Like the Official Destructible Object cards, Vehicle Destructible Object (VDO) cards have a similar appearance but with a few additions.

{I don't think this is succinct enough}
Driver Space: The circle space is where the figure is placed and designates who the driver of the vehicle is.
{Maybe something like...?}
Quote:

Driver Space: This circle space is where the figure designated as the driver of the vehicle is placed. All other figures in the vehicle can be placed elsewhere on the card. If a vehicle is controlled (driveable), a figure must occupy this space.

OCCUPYING VEHICLES
...
{I think this needs an addition to say they have to move the figure to driver space}
If a figure you control is the only figure occupying a VDO or if a figure you control is occupying the designated Driver space in a VDO, you now control that VDO. If your figure is the only figure occupying the VDO, that figure must be placed on the Driver Space of the card.

{Not sure of the intent here so I think it needs a little more clarity of who can be targeted.}
Unless a special power indicates otherwise, a figure can only target one figure occupying a VDO at a time.
{If there are multiple figures occupying the vehicle how &/or who chooses which is being targeted? Is it always the driver first? Or driver last?}


MOVING VEHICLES
{You don't move Army Cards}
Instead of moving normally with an Army Card you control, if one of the figures from that card occupies the Driver space for a VDO, you may move that VDO any number of spaces up to its Move number. You may only move each VDO this way once during each player turn.
{What about...?}
Quote:

If the figure that occupies the Driver space for a VDO takes a turn, instead of moving normally you may move that VDO any number of spaces up to its Move number. You may only move each VDO this way once during each player turn.
{Do we need to mention if VDOs are subject to all terrain rules? Like water, snow, heavy snow or road? But especially water?}
When moving the VDO, follow standard movement rules. VDOs are never considered engaged and never make or receive leaving engagement attacks.


EXITING VEHICLES
...
{I feel like this is an important paragraph & should be highlighted by either being in a coloured box or at the least all bold.}
If your figure exits a VDO that you do not control and your figure does not have the Super Strength special power, before placing your figure, roll one unblockable attack die against it.


DESTROYING VEHICLES
...
After removing the destroyed VDO from the battlefield, players may, in initiative order, place all of their figures that remain on top of the VDO's sculpt on spaces previously occupied by the destroyed VDO.
{Duplicated sentence.}
Then players may, in initiative order, place each remaining figure they control that was occupying the VDO's Army Card on a space or spaces previously occupied by the destroyed VDO. If a figure that was occupying a destroyed VDO cannot be placed on a legal space or spaces, that figure is immediately destroyed.

{I think we need an example of how this all works included in the book.}

IAmBatman November 25th, 2019 09:11 PM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Answers in red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A3n (Post 2335662)
DRAFTING DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS
...
{missing "in"}
A DO included in a player's army is considered like any other figure in that player's army, with a few key exceptions:

Fixed in SP, thanks!

{This confuses me...}
A DO is not considered under a player's control, unless it is a VDO occupied by a figure in your army.
{I thought that was the idea of draftable DOs. You having control of them? Why else are we making them draftable?}

A unit can be in your army without being under your control. They're different terms. The point of making them draftable is to start them in your Start Zone and thus make it a lot easier for you to obtain control of them by having one of your figures occupy the driver's space and keep control of them. But if an enemy figure enters a car and starts driving that car, then the enemy is in control of that figure.
You don't control your car if you're not the one driving it. This is true both in life and in this rule set.

If a car comes along with a mind of its own, it should be a Unique Hero, not a VDO.


EXAMPLE 1: Vehicle Card
{missing fullstop}
Like the Official Destructible Object cards, Vehicle Destructible Object (VDO) cards have a similar appearance but with a few additions.

Weird. This one is correct in the SP.

{I don't think this is succinct enough}
Driver Space: The circle space is where the figure is placed and designates who the driver of the vehicle is.
{Maybe something like...?}
Quote:

Driver Space: This circle space is where the figure designated as the driver of the vehicle is placed. All other figures in the vehicle can be placed elsewhere on the card. If a vehicle is controlled (driveable), a figure must occupy this space.
I'm confused. Adding text makes it less succinct, not more. In addition, you can technically be in control (in terms of game rules) of a VDO without being in the driver space, you just can't drive it.

I do like the "All other figures in the vehicle can be placed elsewhere on the card" part, though. I'm not sure where in the booklet you drew this text from, though, as I'm not seeing a match in the SP, so I'm guessing it's the visual card example in the booklet, in which case I can't update anything on my end.


OCCUPYING VEHICLES
...
{I think this needs an addition to say they have to move the figure to driver space}
If a figure you control is the only figure occupying a VDO or if a figure you control is occupying the designated Driver space in a VDO, you now control that VDO. If your figure is the only figure occupying the VDO, that figure must be placed on the Driver Space of the card.

I see no reason to require this. Let's say I get to activate two figures on my turn. Why can't I have the first one go and be a passenger and the second get into the driver space? Thematically, why can't a figure get into a passenger space instead of the driver space when they're the first one entering the car? I'm not seeing a mechanical or thematic reason for this. What am I missing?


{Not sure of the intent here so I think it needs a little more clarity of who can be targeted.}
Unless a special power indicates otherwise, a figure can only target one figure occupying a VDO at a time.
{If there are multiple figures occupying the vehicle how &/or who chooses which is being targeted? Is it always the driver first? Or driver last?}

The driver or passenger designation has nothing to do with it. It's just saying if you want to target a figure inside the vehicle, here's how to do it.

I think this is a case of trying to clarify and only adding confusion with the extra text. I've trimmed down the SP as a result and now have this:

Quote:

When a figure occupying a Partial Cover VDO targets a figure outside of that VDO, they should use the target point for that VDO to trace line of sight and range. When a figure outside of a Partial Cover VDO wishes to targets a figure occupying that VDO, they should use the target points for that VDO as the hit zone for that figure.

If a special power targets or chooses a space instead of a figure and the space the VDO occupies is chosen, the VDO and all figures occupying the VDO are affected.


MOVING VEHICLES
{You don't move Army Cards}
Instead of moving normally with an Army Card you control, if one of the figures from that card occupies the Driver space for a VDO, you may move that VDO any number of spaces up to its Move number. You may only move each VDO this way once during each player turn.
{What about...?}
Quote:

If the figure that occupies the Driver space for a VDO takes a turn, instead of moving normally you may move that VDO any number of spaces up to its Move number. You may only move each VDO this way once during each player turn.
No. That text suggestion reopens the squad exploit we were specifically trying to shut down. I'll specify that it's instead of moving with all of the figures for an Army Card you control.


{Do we need to mention if VDOs are subject to all terrain rules? Like water, snow, heavy snow or road? But especially water?}
When moving the VDO, follow standard movement rules. VDOs are never considered engaged and never make or receive leaving engagement attacks.

We specified that they're figures. Figures follow terrain rules. After that, we only need to specify what rules they break, IMO.

EXITING VEHICLES
...
{I feel like this is an important paragraph & should be highlighted by either being in a coloured box or at the least all bold.}
If your figure exits a VDO that you do not control and your figure does not have the Super Strength special power, before placing your figure, roll one unblockable attack die against it.

I'll let japes make the call on that one. :-)

DESTROYING VEHICLES
...
After removing the destroyed VDO from the battlefield, players may, in initiative order, place all of their figures that remain on top of the VDO's sculpt on spaces previously occupied by the destroyed VDO.
{Duplicated sentence.}
Then players may, in initiative order, place each remaining figure they control that was occupying the VDO's Army Card on a space or spaces previously occupied by the destroyed VDO. If a figure that was occupying a destroyed VDO cannot be placed on a legal space or spaces, that figure is immediately destroyed.

Nope. One is about figures on top of a VDO and one is about figures occupying a VDO. Easy to miss, but distinct, and intentional.


{I think we need an example of how this all works included in the book.}

"how all this works" is a bit vague, but I'm open to someone ambitious and with a good camera putting one together. I'm not sure where I'd start, though, or what exactly you're looking for.

johnny139 November 27th, 2019 11:30 AM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
A few things I noticed:

- Example 1 box has "Uniquenes" instead of "Uniqueness"
- We introduce DO and VDO without defining them. Pretty easy to figure out what means what, but I'd like the first instance of each to include a parenthetical clarifying to make sure.

Otherwise it looks good - these booklets are always top notch.

IAmBatman November 28th, 2019 09:17 AM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Already had the red under Example 1 and added the blue just now:

Quote:

EXAMPLE 1: Vehicle Card
Like the Official Destructible Object cards, Vehicle Destructible Object (VDO) cards have a similar appearance but with a few additions.

Uniqueness: Whether a Vehicle is Unique or Uncommon.

Occupancy: The number value indicates the number of figures that can occupy the Vehicle.

Size/Height: The Size and Height indicate the Vehicle’s actual size and height as per the standard Heroscape game mechanics, but also by their inclusion symbolize that this Destructible Object (DO) is compatible with the throwing rules from the C3G Destructible Objects rule set.
Edit: And Uniqueness was right in the SP, but apparently japes missed an "s" when copying over. :-P

johnny139 November 28th, 2019 09:16 PM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
Ah, I see, they're in the Example box - didn't think to check there. Works for me. :up:

IAmBatman November 28th, 2019 10:44 PM

Re: The Book of Vehicle Rules - VOTE for On Deck
 
OK. I'm calling a moratorium on wording edits. We've had our best and brightest all take at least one pass at it and things have been updated. In the interest of not letting perfect be the enemy of good, I'm going to let @japes do the final edits here based on the comments and the SP updates, then I'm going to call for the On Deck vote again and let that vote go through one way or the other. :-)

I think it's time for this to wrap and for energies spent on it to be repurposed elsewhere!


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