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-   -   Decision 2016 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=53250)

Swamper December 15th, 2016 12:41 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Whether it's true or not, there's a perception out there that liberals look down on everyone else (basket of deplorables is the perfect example of that). All of these "protests" feed into that narrative. That was the main idea I took from the article, anyway.

Hahma December 15th, 2016 12:52 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Sure, I'm certain some liberals do look down on Trump voters, or maybe more so the hardcore Trump supporters. I think when people are chanting "build that wall" or "lock her up", it makes them easier targets.

But I have seen tons of comments by conservatives calling liberals "libtards", welfare recipients, anti-Christian, anti-Christmas, tree huggers, crusaders of such and such etc.. Though, when colleges coddle students and help make people offended by everything, it makes them easier targets.

There has been plenty of judging and looking down at others from every side.

Dad_Scaper December 15th, 2016 12:52 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Swamper (Post 2125967)
Whether it's true or not, there's a perception out there that liberals look down on everyone else (basket of deplorables is the perfect example of that). All of these "protests" feed into that narrative. That was the main idea I took from the article, anyway.

Of course. And there is, you may not be surprised to learn, a perception out there that conservatives think liberals are waging some kind of culture war, and are vain, atheist, judgmental blowhards, and therefore "liberals," like "conservatives," feel unfairly judged. So they judge in return, and all accuse the others of hypocrisy, and here we are.

Hold the leaders to high standards, of course. But when you're talking about your fellow Americans, just remember that almost none of them are actually jerks. They are people you would play board games with, or go to the movies with, or whatever. Withhold your judgment from them. All of you. Again, my 2 cents.

Ranior December 15th, 2016 01:29 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Swamper (Post 2125950)
Thanks for the thoughts. I largely agree with both of you. The article, to me, brought to mind not the Democratic party or liberal group as a whole, but a subset of the group that seems to find ways to "protest" or be an "activist" without ever really doing anything. It seems very self-righteous to me.

I really respect the attitude some people here had when Trump was elected. I'm thinking specifically of Dysole signing up for that trans hotline thing. That's a real, concrete action that will help people. I respect that. I have a harder time respecting people wearing safety pins or checking in on Facebook at Standing Rock when they're in their warm living rooms.

That basic thought of the article I agreed with. The rest of it was fluff. I did find the Harry Potter part kinda funny.


I'd largely agree with this. I mean I'll clarify though.

People are of course allowed to protest however they want. If you'd like to wear a safety pin, or post something on facebook/twitter/etc, go for it.

But most of those actions I think just make people feel better about themselves rather than actually doing anything to affect change. (effect change? I'll admit one of my biggest grammar struggles in life still is getting affect/effect correct, but I digress....)

One thing in particular that personally drives me a bit nuts is the continued remember Harambe posts and stuff. I agree that the death of a gorilla in a zoo is sad. I wish it hadn't happened.

On the other hand a necessary truth of zoos is that we are containing wild animals and as much as we may try to keep these animals away from humans, inevitably accidents will occur. And zoos must follow their procedures, and an innocent animal may have to be killed.

If you do not like that truth, then do something to actually change zoos. Else if you just want to better support animals or zoos, there are dozens of things one can do.

But posting about Harambe really does nothing. If they want to do it, so be it, but it is very much a pointless gesture in my opinion.

I think however this is just part of what I and others have to get used to in the day and age of social media. They aren't actually hurting anyone. The biggest issue is probably just that many feel like they are helping out in some way when they are not, and perhaps in the past they would have actually donated some time or money instead. I really don't think there is much evidence for that though.....

So perhaps I'm just rambling on about nothing.

Hahma December 15th, 2016 01:33 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
A perfect example of judgment/labeling.

Maybe around December 1st or 2nd, I happened to "like" a post on Facebook, where a woman ripped on Trump on Twitter. I believe I had posted that link here, saying how she really let him have it, or something to that effect.

Anyway, it was either the same day I "liked" it it the day after. I got an instant message from an old Marine buddy that lives near Boston. He said: "Have you turned into a liberal?"

The only thing I could think of that would have had him ask me that, was the post I "liked" on Facebook, as sometimes "friends" see what you "liked".

I basically replied that just because I don't like Trump, that makes me a liberal? And the way that he said it, implied a derogatory term of "liberal". I said I'm a moderate and see good and bad from both sides, and don't care for the far left or right.

He said the country needs to be run by a businessman and not the PoS Clinton and will be better than that turd Obama.

I said that if he creates millions of jobs, make health care better for everyone, make the lives of our senior citizens better, and a few other things, then I will praise him. Tom said get ready to praise. I said I don't mind being wrong of it means that life is better for most Americans.

The point is, that I was judged and labeked a liberal, which was used in not a flattering way. So it's not just liberals judging conservatives or Trump supporters.

vegietarian18 December 15th, 2016 01:33 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
I'm pretty sure the Harambe thing is poking fun at people who do protest on Facebook and Twitter

Dad_Scaper December 15th, 2016 02:57 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vegietarian18 (Post 2125990)
I'm pretty sure the Harambe thing is poking fun at people who do protest on Facebook and Twitter

I think that's right, but every time I see it I'm just sad all over again for the poor souls who worked at that zoo in Cincinnati, and had to live with the aftermath of a considered, truly impossible decision. And for months now they've had to be reminded of that day - of the day that people at that zoo chose to put down a member of their own family - whenever they connect to the internet.

Thankfully for them it's not as bad as it used to be.

But I think that vegie is right, that the humor is in making fun of the phenomenon of e-rage.

Dysole December 15th, 2016 05:21 PM

The Power of Narrative
 
I wasn't really a fan of the Drumpf movement because I saw it as not attacking the real problem. I appreciated what the safety pin movement was trying to do, but I did want it to be backed up with action. The HP stuff was cherry picked. I saw tons of memes about it being between Umbridge and Voldemort. I saw a sorting hat thing put Clinton in Slytherin and Trump in Durmstrang. Anything popular is going to have people use it to push whatever political agenda they like.

And people will interpret events within their framework of understanding until things make them reconsider. Hence, the echo chamber. Before I was out publicly, I got some specific insights into what several people I knew on facebook thought of trans people with Caitlin Jenner and the HB2 North Carolina bills. Some of it was disheartening. BUT, I also know several people who have taken a much more nuanced view than they had previously regarding trans issues because I was able to offer them a look into that world and see it.

For me, talking with some of my more reasoned conservative friends has given me insight into things I hadn't considered and how certain perspectives can be treated.

Having spent some time myself on both sides of that aisle, I actually kind of get where both sides come from when they can "look down" on the other. But it's not something endemic to one side. It's a part of the human condition to tribalize.

~Dysole, rambling a bit more than she needs to

Dad_Scaper December 15th, 2016 06:26 PM

Re: The Power of Narrative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2126038)
Having spent some time myself on both sides of that aisle, I actually kind of get where both sides come from when they can "look down" on the other. But it's not something endemic to one side. It's a part of the human condition to tribalize.

You can "tribalize" - be with those of your own tribe - without judging the other. Everybody can.

Tornado December 15th, 2016 06:40 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Easier said then done DS.
Those that can are truly the good ones.
Human nature is extremely hard to overcome.
And it is my firm belief that most do not wish to change.
Some gain perspective over time, some get worse.

Those that are enlightened from an early age are blessed.

Dad_Scaper December 15th, 2016 06:54 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2126062)
Easier said then done DS.
Those that can are truly the good ones.
Human nature is extremely hard to overcome.
And it is my firm belief that most do not wish to change.
Some gain perspective over time, some get worse.

Those that are enlightened from an early age are blessed.

My goal is not to change the minds of most people. My goal is to treat people well, because treating people well is the right thing to do. For its own sake.

It's easier said than done. In my official capacity I talked to a guy wanted for murder this morning. He didn't have a lawyer, and had lots of questions and was kind of angry. I just tried treating him respectfully and we spoke for about 25 minutes. By the time we were done he appreciated that I'd been patient and respectful with him.

If I hadn't been patient and respectful, we could have been done in 15 or 10 minutes, but I am trying to do better, and that's the path I'm trying to take. It was a solid investment of those 10 or 15 minutes, I think. He's still going to trial, will still (I imagine) go to jail for what he did. How am I helping my day, or his, be any better, with needless direspect? No thank you.

Again, this is all kind of aspirational, from my perspective. During this election season, I came to think that what's missing is mutual respect, and if I expect respect from others, I must demonstrate it as well. I won't abandon reason or principles, but I don't have to do those things, to be respectful.

Tornado December 15th, 2016 07:18 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
:word:

I try to always treat people with respect until they prove themselves unworthy.

I try to treat others as equals, this generally applies mostly to young ones, again until they prove unworthy.

I really think this goes a long ways with young ones. I know I would have appreciated such actions when I was a youth.

Anyway great mantra/philosophy DS. :)

A goal of not changing people minds has to be one of the smartest ideas ever.


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