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-   -   Decision 2016 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=53250)

keglo December 7th, 2016 08:36 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 2124411)
OK, but you said "The government is giving vouchers for beer" in that case. But they wouldn't be doing that literally. They'd just be loading up a debit card that can be used for bread, or milk... or beer. And people could decide they preferred beer to milk, and buy the beer.

This is exactly the same as the government giving you a debit card that can only be used for education, and some people deciding that they'd rather buy catholic school than public school.

So if "the government is giving vouchers for beer" in the first case, "the government is giving vouchers for catholic school" in the second case. It's just as you said.

What?? That is SO not exactly the same. Seriously, am I the only one who has a problem with that analogy?

Look, I don't know what else to say on the subject. Unless I am just completely dense, which I admit is totally possible, then your arguments do not make sense. They certainly do not make sense to me. I'll just have to leave it at, I do not agree with you guys.

Aldin December 8th, 2016 10:04 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 2124484)
Relax, Aldin. It's OK to admit the obvious.

Like how a voucher system isn't state funding of religion? :mrgreen:

~Aldin, amusedly

Dad_Scaper December 8th, 2016 10:17 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Aldin, are you saying that funding a religious institution isn't funding a religion?

Aldin December 8th, 2016 10:23 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
I'm saying that if there is a play at the local mosque, that my paying to go see it is me paying to see a play, not me funding the mosque.

~Aldin, secularly

ETA Let me expand with another example that might seem better to some:

Let's say my kid wants to go to a movie and I give them $20 to buy a $9 matinee and $11 small drink/popcorn combo. When they get there, they see that there is a special for $17 to get all three. They then use the $3 for another purchase - coffee after the show. I don't see myself as funding the coffee. I gave them $20 for a specific purpose and they accomplished the purpose. If they were able to accomplish the same purpose and salvage sufficient funds to do something else with them, I see that as their funds earned through luck or ingenuity and have no reason to see them as my contribution.

Dad_Scaper December 8th, 2016 10:30 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Does it make a difference if the money goes to the same place, but they call the play a "fundraiser"?

Aldin December 8th, 2016 10:31 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2124595)
Does it make a difference if the money goes to the same place, but they call the play a "fundraiser"?

Absolutely. Purpose matters. In fact, it is the defining point in this case.

~Aldin, saying "check out my edit above, too"

Dad_Scaper December 8th, 2016 10:32 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Interesting. So if I go to a play at the local mosque, and I don't know whether it's called a "fundraiser" or not, then either I am funding the mosque or just going to see a play, depending on what the mosque calls the event. I, as the person giving the money, don't know whether it is funding the recipient or simply buying a ticket for a play. Is that correct?

Aldin December 8th, 2016 10:39 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
More depending on your purpose in going. If I help my wife put away groceries I might be doing it to ease her day or I might be doing it to see what the treats are so I can eat them before anyone else finds them. In the first case, I am helping my family and in the second I am sabotaging them. It is the same action in each case, but the purpose gives the action meaning.

If the government is providing an education voucher in the amount it already pays to fund a kid's education, they are helping citizens to have a choice about their kid's education. If they are secretly trying to find a way to funnel money into Christian institutions in order to start a new Christian society led by the ghost of Billy Graham, well that would be another thing entirely.

~Aldin, purposefully

Dad_Scaper December 8th, 2016 10:45 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Ok. So if the mosque calls the event a fundraiser, and there are fliers before the event and banners all over the event calling it a "fundraiser," and before the curtain goes up a series of speakers comes out and thank us for our contributions making it possible for the mosque to provide young people a proper education in the ways of Islam, if I'm only going because I wanted to see Guys and Dolls, then I am not funding the mosque.

I believe that this is a correct application of your use of the words in question, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Aldin December 8th, 2016 11:10 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2124600)
Ok. So if the mosque calls the event a fundraiser, and there are fliers before the event and banners all over the event calling it a "fundraiser," and before the curtain goes up a series of speakers comes out and thank us for our contributions making it possible for the mosque to provide young people a proper education in the ways of Islam, if I'm only going because I wanted to see Guys and Dolls, then I am not funding the mosque.

I believe that this is a correct application of your use of the words in question, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Life is complicated and so are people. The problem with the above example is that it would be hard to imagine the human being going to that show that didn't at least consider the thought that their ticket was more than just going to see a show. But let's say my kid is in the show, to add a dimension that makes our theatergoer into a believable human being again. Now I can happily say that I am not funding the mosque, but paying to see my kid act - something I would do no matter where they were performing.

~Aldin, who watched Hairspray Live last night with the kid in question

Son of Arathorn December 8th, 2016 11:15 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by All Your Pie (Post 2124171)
I feel compelled to point out that the saving grace of Drumpf's lack of governing experience--for those who considered it something that needed to be addressed, at least--was that he would surround himself with experienced and competent professionals, so that at least he would have advisers to cover the experience that he lacks. With his current appointments and tendency to blow off intelligence meetings, I think we can officially declare that possibility dead and buried. He's much more interested in pandering to personal friends and the right-wing establishment than doing any of the actual business of President.

I have to cut in here- I strongly disagree with the notion that the president-elect's cabinet runneth over with experienced and competent professionals. His top candidate for the head of the EPA is a climate change denier- pretty much the opposite of an experienced and competent professional for that position. He's picked lobbyists and magnates for key, important positions in government, and a doctor-turned-second-tier-Fox-voice for Sec. of Housing and Urban Development. Trump said he would "drain the swamp," and now he's doing the opposite.

Quote:

While we're on the subject of executive incompetency, what about his decision to alternate time living in the White House and his tasteless New York suite--at the incredible expense of government and taxpayer money? This doesn't really have any dangerous policy implications, I just find it disgusting that he's so unwilling to humble himself--by living in the most prestigious house in the nation, no less--that he'll cost the country he's supposed to serve millions of dollars instead.
That part in bold- that's the part that worries me. We always knew Trump wasn't humble by any standard, but forcing a government agency to give him business in return for doing their job- which is to keep him safe- is a conflict of interest.

Dad_Scaper December 8th, 2016 11:19 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldin (Post 2124608)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2124600)
Ok. So if the mosque calls the event a fundraiser, and there are fliers before the event and banners all over the event calling it a "fundraiser," and before the curtain goes up a series of speakers comes out and thank us for our contributions making it possible for the mosque to provide young people a proper education in the ways of Islam, if I'm only going because I wanted to see Guys and Dolls, then I am not funding the mosque.

I believe that this is a correct application of your use of the words in question, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Life is complicated and so are people. The problem with the above example is that it would be hard to imagine the human being going to that show that didn't at least consider the thought that their ticket was more than just going to see a show. But let's say my kid is in the show, to add a dimension that makes our theatergoer into a believable human being again. Now I can happily say that I am not funding the mosque, but paying to see my kid act - something I would do no matter where they were performing.

~Aldin, who watched Hairspray Live last night with the kid in question

Aldin, obviously a person who likes to support local theater and wants to see Guys and Dolls might go to this mosque to see this show, without regard for whether it's a "fundraiser." Such people exist.

Regardless, I am not going to quibble with you about whether you are "funding" an institution when you give it money. If that's how you want your definitions to work, that's fine. We can agree to disagree, and our readers can decide for themselves.


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