Is the Silver Surfer Too Much For Classic 'Scape?
 

There was a discussion over in the Official Unofficial Power Rankings thread on the Competitive army board about whether or not 300+ point Marvel units were broken relative to Heroscape units. I know this has been discussed before relative to all the Marvel units-- the consensus seems to be that Marvel figures are generally compatible with Classic 'Scape-- but I think the Silver Surfer is a case that deserves greater scrutiny.

Ranged Flyers are particularly powerful, since they easily get advantages that other Ranged units have to work for. First off, they are practically guaranteed the high ground, with the respective bonuses for attack and defense. Secondly, they have a much greater ability to avoid engagement, thus maintaining their freedom to choose targets.

In Classic 'Scape, the ranged flyers are Huge, double-spaced figures with shorter ranged attacks. This means two things: their size makes it easy for opponents' ranged units to target them, and their shorter ranged attack means they have to get closer to their opponents and risk engagement (it also means they can be drawn out by longer ranged units until they're in that vulnerable position).

Marvel figures change this a bit by being small and having average range. They can much more easily conceal themselves from opponents' ranged units, and can attack from a somewhat safer distance. Still, when they attack, they have to make themselves somewhat visible and, therefore, vulnerable to ranged attack. Also, since they have only one attack per round, squads have a good chance of creeping up to high ground and having a chance at engaging the Marvel figure.

But, when it comes to the Silver Surfer, even these tactics fail. The Silver Surfer, even though he has the shortest base range of the Marvel shooters, exposes himself the least. He can easily zip behind a visual obstacle after attacking (I've nick-named him "The Platinum Pu$$y because of this). Even if you manage to get to him with another unit, he has disengage, so his choice of target is never limited, and he can escape situations that would otherwise tie up or cow other ranged units.

Map design plays a big role in any game, but it can be particularly imbalancing with the Silver Surfer. If you have a map with significant height and line-of-sight blockers, he'll dominate. He's tough enough if you can get to him, but it's next to impossible to get to him on many boards. The best counters to him are other ranged flyers, and particularly the Marvel ones, who (unlike Mimring or Nilfheim) can actually take a beating.

Taking all of that into consideration, do you think the Silver Surfer, respective of Classic 'Scape, is broken? Or do you think he merely demands new and different types of tactics than are usually used?

The problem, IMO, with Marvel compatability is much like playing with the Castle set in classic 'Scape. To defeat them there are just certain units you must pigeon-hole yourself into.

For most Marvel the answer is to load up on Rats (to tie them up) and hero killers to try, try and try again.

When the Surfer enters the game, you have to forgo some rats for Gladiatrons.

Have you had success with Gladiatrons? My experience has been that the Surfer evades most earthbound melee units pretty easily.

Re: Is the Silver Surfer Too Much For Classic 'Scape?
 

I think it's more the latter.

The trouble with the Surfer is that he's been translated pretty well into Heroscape - almost too well. After all, in the comics he is essentially the servant of a godlike being and a demigodlike being in his own right. In the comics he is more than capable of standing up to the Hulk, which he also is in Heroscape (despite costing less). That said, this is a game and he should be a fair piece, which I think he is. You just need to plan a large part of your strategy around him, which is only fair since he's almost certainly a large part of your opponent's army.

You make excellent points about the power of ranged flyers, of which there are many in the superhero genre. The Surfer will probably be the epitome of this kind of character, not only having stealth flying but a hit-and-run power as well. I have seen him die in a mixed HS/MS game, though it took two squads and four heroes to kill him. I find the Krav useful against him, as they outrange him, forcing him to get close and use his regular attack/run away combo, since his special attack is useless against them. The Microcorps can sort of fill this role, but not as well since they will rarely have height on the Surfer. I haven't tried the Ninja of the Northern Wind against him yet, but I imagine their extra move might be useful against Mr. Radd.

Anyway, I'm sure there are other solutions to bring him down; just don't expect to do it without heavy casualties or a luck instant-kill d20 roll. :)

I doubt the Ninja would do much against him. Their Disappear trick doesn't work against the Cosmic Blast.

Sorry, I should've clarified. I meant that since they have a threat range of seven (with their move), they can stay out of his Cosmic Blast range, making him choose between: using his regular attack, which gives them the potential to close on him; or ignoring them, which is dangerous.

Of course, as has been pointed out, this assumes relatively level terrain.

See, I think the Ninjas would be a useful melee unit agains the Silver Surfer. If he uses his Cosmic blast against them, he loses some of his mobility and becomes vulnerable to other attackers. If he doesn't use the Cosmic Blast, they can advance on the high ground or to other strategic locations quicker than most melee units.

Sure, on their own, they can't stand up to him, but in conjunction with other units, they might lure him out into the open.

Personally, I think the tactic to use against the Silver Surfer is to spread out and take away his escape routes-- you're probably going to need flyers to do it, I think. If he doesn't have any place to hide, and if you place your turn markers wisely, then it can be effective.

Otherwise, I read about a tactic against Cyprien in which you use Theracus as a delivery system for Major X17-- I suppose that could work with the Silver Surfer. It would probably take a couple rounds for the Surfer to free himself.

It is my opinion that, even though the two genres are supposed to be compatible, Marvel figures over 300 points are too powerful against classic HS. It takes way more luck than tactics to bring them down, especially Thanos and Silver Surfer.

I have yet to find any balance issues between the two games. Silver Surfer is tough, but not unbeatable. I've never felt trapped into certain builds when trying to take him down. He's vulnerable to any auto-detruct or defense-bypassing ability, he's vulnerable to other ranged fliers, he's useless when pinned down by Gladiatrons or the Major, and so on....Heck I've seen him simply get beaten to death by Krug.

The Surfer is certainly a load. He's my favorite Marvel character to play, and one I dread playing against. His combination of stealth flight, high speed, good range, and powerful special attack mean that few of the quick-killers who can punish him for being a medium figure will survive long enough to get in position and pull off their deadly moves. I think you're right to single him out as the one who comes the closest to seriously damaging the normal point game.

However, he has one great weakness: his lack of multiple attacks. If I put three markers on the Surfer, I can kill at most three venoc vipers in a round. At most three rats. At most three gladiatrons or blastatrons. At most three orcs. If I put order markers on a squad-killer (Surfer+Q9=500, cough cough), the Surfer, who does not participate in any form of bonding, will be sitting stationary while I'm trying to whittle down the swarms with his allies.

I think the Surfer would have been broken had he come out earlier in the game's history. But with Iskra/Rechets, Templars, Cyprien, and Shades all pushing the mobility (and often hero-kill) envelope in the classic line, his speed isn't as hyper as it would once have been. I think he's in the same place as Q9: a figure who is aggressively priced, is good at what he does, and will force people to re-evaluate the worth of many other units-- but not a design mistake. Good is not broken.

Here's something I've been wondering about: should his board have been made a hitzone? It doesn't make a lot of sense when compared to the accessories of other characters, ie: Captain America's shield, Agent Carr's sword, etc..., but I suppose it might make sense as a way to balance the Surfer out.

Well, in the comics, the board is "part" of him, I believe... so yeah, it should be.