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Yodaking September 6th, 2018 01:15 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
B, if a power on a card does not reference a VDO, then it can't be used while that figure occupies a vehicle.


Don't think figures should be using powers when Kang has them chilling out in another time or space waiting to be summoned as reinforcements either. That would be a pretty big theme break and I'm not sure where the idea you could do that came from.

japes September 6th, 2018 01:24 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2219298)
B, if a power on a card does not reference a VDO, then it can't be used while that figure occupies a vehicle.


Don't think figures should be using powers when Kang has them chilling out in another time or space waiting to be summoned as reinforcements either. That would be a pretty big theme break and I'm not sure where the idea you could do that came from.

I agree with your second part but the first one is back to my original concern. We are forcing a mechanic to maintain balance that's not even remotely thematic. Wolverine gets in a car and his healing factor no longer works?

quozl September 6th, 2018 01:26 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Japes, if you agree with the 2nd part (chilling with Kang) then we're not "forcing a mechanic" for VDOs. It's the same mechanic. Why wouldn't Wolverine heal while he's chilling with Kang?

Yodaking September 6th, 2018 01:45 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
When someone is in a VDO and that VDO gets riddled with bullets or smashed by the Hulk and blows up in a big fire ball, what happens to the driver? Is it an auto kill or do they somehow survive unscratched?

Ronin September 6th, 2018 01:47 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2219312)
When someone is in a VDO and that VDO gets riddled with bullets or smashed by the Hulk and blows up in a big fire ball, what happens to the driver? Is it an auto kill or do they somehow survive unscratched?

If a VDO is destroyed, you roll an unblockable attack die against everyone inside and they get placed on spaces the vehicle occupied.

japes September 6th, 2018 01:52 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2219307)
Japes, if you agree with the 2nd part (chilling with Kang) then we're not "forcing a mechanic" for VDOs. It's the same mechanic. Why wouldn't Wolverine heal while he's chilling with Kang?

With Kang he's pulling them from another timeline so they don't technically exist until they are summoned. Therefore, Professor X shouldn't be able to give orders to Mutants while he's on Kang's card since he's not in this universe/timeline. However, thematically he should be able to give orders while sitting in a car.

That's the mechanic that's being forced. We are saying no powers while in the car. That's for purely mechanical purposes.

japes September 6th, 2018 01:53 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2219313)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2219312)
When someone is in a VDO and that VDO gets riddled with bullets or smashed by the Hulk and blows up in a big fire ball, what happens to the driver? Is it an auto kill or do they somehow survive unscratched?

If a VDO is destroyed, you roll an unblockable attack die against everyone inside and they get placed on spaces the vehicle occupied.

Which is part of the existing VDO rules that are already in place.

Ronin September 6th, 2018 02:03 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Professor X couldn't give orders in a vehicle unless we retconned his card to specifically allow it. No-one's going to be within 10 spaces of him while he's occupying a vehicle. Nick Fury or Reed might be a better example.

If you let figures use powers like that in a vehicle, then vehicles are no longer going to be balanced around driving around in them or using them as vehicles. They'll have to be balanced around sitting in place in them and using them as a protective barrier. Their costs will skyrocket and they won't be used for anything thematic. Every vehicle would become a defensive bunker.

(And that would be just as true if you took the alternate approach of letting some figures start with VDOs instead of making VDOs outright draftable)

Letting Professor X issue commands from a car might seem like the thematic thing to do. But it would result in deeply unthematic gameplay.

japes September 6th, 2018 02:33 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2219320)
Professor X couldn't give orders in a vehicle unless we retconned his card to specifically allow it. No-one's going to be within 10 spaces of him while he's occupying a vehicle. Nick Fury or Reed might be a better example.

If you let figures use powers like that in a vehicle, then vehicles are no longer going to be balanced around driving around in them or using them as vehicles. They'll have to be balanced around sitting in place in them and using them as a protective barrier. Their costs will skyrocket and they won't be used for anything thematic. Every vehicle would become a defensive bunker.

(And that would be just as true if you took the alternate approach of letting some figures start with VDOs instead of making VDOs outright draftable)

Letting Professor X issue commands from a car might seem like the thematic thing to do. But it would result in deeply unthematic gameplay.

Not unthematic at all. Mechanically flawed yes. But thematically when Professor X is on the VDO's card, he is in the Car and figures outside the car can be within the 10 spaces of the car...which thematically is where Professor X is.

I fully realize that VDO's would become defensive bunkers which is why I brought it up. Because I don't want to have to draft a car every time I play because he was tested in a defensive bunker. So I understand the desire to make special powers not work when in a car as a mechanic. But I'm also saying it just doesn't make sense thematically.

I'm also not sure why Kang and the sort keep being brought up against my arguments. I AGREE that when a figure is on those type of cards that the default should be that the powers don't work. But this is a different thing all together. A figure getting in a car isn't teleported to an alternate dimension. Putting the figure on the VDO's card is strictly a mechanical process to note that the figure is in the car. But the intent is that the figure is still on the map just inside the vehicle.

either 1. I'm doing a craptastic job explaining my side, 2. everyone is only seeing what they want and are missing my point, 3. No one really cares what I think and they plan on doing this regardless, or 4. I'm confused entirely on what's being proposed.

Yodaking September 6th, 2018 02:36 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Yeah, I don't like the idea of the VDO's just being used as a shield. The penalty for jumping into a car to avoid a Armor Piercing Rocket is pretty weak, one 50/50 chance for a single W is nothing. I'd change the VDO rules to make being inside a car that is destroyed a much more dangerous proposition if you want to discourage people from drafting them just to use it as shields or safe space. That's in addition to shutting down the use of special powers.

On the theme front, their just isn't going to be a clean theme justification either way since special powers cover so many different things. Yes, Wolverine shouldn't stop healing while driving a car, but I don't agree that Prof. X should be mentally sending out tactical commands in real time while driving. I know driving the same route home from work every day can make driving seem like a mindless task, but driving aggressively and/or defensively while participating in an active war zone does require some concentration & focus on potentially hazardous task. C3G VDO use isn't driving Miss Daisy, it's Fast & Furious.

If you are going to let someone multi-task by using a special power while driving, then their needs to be a potential for disaster component. Use a special power on your card and roll a die to see if you flip the car over and break your arm in the crash. That kind of stuff just overly complicates things though and asks the question of where do we stop. If Hulk punches the front of a vehicle, shouldn't that trigger the airbag and knock an OM off the card of the driver?

japes September 6th, 2018 02:41 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2219331)
Yeah, I don't like the idea of the VDO's just being used as a shield. The penalty for jumping into a car to avoid a Armor Piercing Rocket is pretty weak, one 50/50 chance for a single W is nothing. I'd change the VDO rules to make being inside a car that is destroyed a much more dangerous proposition if you want to discourage people from drafting them just to use it as shields or safe space. That's in addition to shutting down the use of special powers.

On the theme front, their just isn't going to be a clean theme justification either way since special powers cover so many different things. Yes, Wolverine shouldn't stop healing while driving a car, but I don't agree that Prof. X should be mentally sending out tactical commands in real time while driving. I know driving the same route home from work every day can make driving seem like a mindless task, but driving aggressively and/or defensively while participating in an active war zone does require some concentration & focus on potentially hazardous task. C3G VDO use isn't driving Miss Daisy, it's Fast & Furious.

If you are going to let someone multi-task by using a special power while driving, then their needs to be a potential for disaster component. Use a special power on your card and roll a die to see if you flip the car over and break your arm in the crash. That kind of stuff just overly complicates things though and asks the question of where do we stop. If Hulk punches the front of a vehicle, shouldn't that trigger the airbag and knock an OM off the card of the driver?

Who's saying he's driving. Most VDO's have multiple passengers.

I agree there isn't a clean break anywhere. It's why I was questioning why we were doing this. If we are finding that it's not clean should we just say we tried and go back to the drawing board.

Ronin September 6th, 2018 02:44 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I think the question of "should characters be able to use special powers in cars?" is just another iteration of what characters can do versus what they should do, which comes up all the time when we're designing cards. If something is technically possible for a character, but it encourages weird gameplay or unthematic synergy, we don't normally go for it.

Mainly I'm surprised to see opposition to barring most special powers (ie everything but vehicle-centric powers like Lady Blackhawk's) from being used in vehicles because that was part of the rules as most of us understood them when this got under way. We talked about it, tested it and everything. :shrug:

The idea that special powers might be usable in vehicles after all is something that came up mid-stream here.


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