Heroscapers

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-   -   The Pre-SoV Workshop (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=47761)

MegaSilver January 30th, 2014 12:19 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 1908216)
I have to agree; I'd rather this worm wasn't a Demon. Just make up a race for it and let it be a monster.

That's okay by me. Demon felt the best thing for me to pick right off the bat given what it's based on.

dok January 30th, 2014 11:43 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Dysole pointed out that the precedent of TKN's trample stomp implies that "were the figure not there" is not needed in the Devour language. So...
STEALTH UNDERGROUND MOVEMENT
Instead of moving normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may immediately place him on any empty non-water space that is within 4 spaces of Ashi-Dhulu and is no higher than 1 level above Ashi-Dhulu's height or 3 levels below Ashi-Dhulu's base. If Ashi-Dhulu is engaged when he starts his Underground Movement, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

DEVOUR
Instead of moving and attacking normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may choose a small or medium Common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end Stealth Underground Movement. Destroy the chosen figure and immediately place Ashi-Dhulu on that space using Stealth Underground Movement.
I think that works pretty well.

MegaSilver January 30th, 2014 11:54 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
I've already set to fix that, dok, but thanks. ;)

Kinseth January 30th, 2014 12:26 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 1908208)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 1908172)
Is that how others also feel? Or that most are just against using the jandar dice for these figures ? And if the defensive ability was redone it could be justified?

Like I said, the package as a whole doesn't feel especially focused, but I'm not too bothered by it. Sometimes a unit just needs a bit of a boost.

I've posted some additional brainstorm options in my thread, would appreciate opinions on possible ideas.

Sir Dendrik January 30th, 2014 08:53 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Another cook in the kitchen because the Heroscapese on Devour doesn't quite feel right:

Devour
Before using the Stealth Underground Movement power, you may destroy a small or medium common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end its movement. Ashi-Dhulu must then move to the space the figure occupied using Stealth Underground Movement, if able.

Improved Cyberclaw prevents movement altogether so I think this sidesteps the most obvious distant destruction theme-break. Just an idea to integrate the two powers a little more seamlessly.

MegaSilver January 30th, 2014 09:05 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
You bring up a good point about Improved Cyberclaw, though I'm not sure if the current version covers it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Dendrik (Post 1908413)
Another cook in the kitchen because the Heroscapese on Devour doesn't quite feel right:

Devour
Before using the Stealth Underground Movement power, you may destroy a small or medium common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end its movement. Ashi-Dhulu must then move to the space the figure occupied using Stealth Underground Movement, if able.

Improved Cyberclaw prevents movement altogether so I think this sidesteps the most obvious distant destruction theme-break. Just an idea to integrate the two powers a little more seamlessly.

Here's the current version, though the species is being changed to Ashi-Tan:

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/...psfeaa6465.jpg

Lyrgard January 31st, 2014 03:04 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

STEALTH UNDERGROUND MOVEMENT
Instead of moving normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may immediately place him on any empty non-water space that is within 4 spaces of Ashi-Dhulu and is no higher than 1 level above Ashi-Dhulu's height or 3 levels below Ashi-Dhulu's base. If Ashi-Dhulu is engaged when he starts his Underground Movement, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

DEVOUR
Instead of moving and attacking normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may choose a small or medium Common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end Stealth Underground Movement. Destroy the chosen figure and immediately place Ashi-Dhulu on that space using Stealth Underground Movement.

I don't like the current DEVOUR wording. I don't like the "where Ashi-Dhulu could end Stealth Underground Movement if he was to use it but wait this power is instead of moving so in fact he will not use Stealth Underground Movement but, eh, just imagine, if he was to use it, he could end there"
I find this wording worse than the Kozuke Samurai Charging Assault power.

Contrary to dok, I feel that bootstraping on the Underground Movement power is worse than reapeating nearly the same wording in two powers (at least if your goal is to submit your card to SoV). I agree that repeating the same wording feel strange, but bootstraping on another power, and using wording as "where you could end if you were to use this other power" feels really... "customy" and not official to me.

I don't really find elegant solutions to this problem.

Some ideas :

Quote:

STEALTH UNDERGROUND MOVEMENT
...

DEVOUR
if Ashi-Dhulu used Stealth Underground Movement this turn, instead of attacking, you may choose a small or medium figure adjacent to Ashi-Dhulu and destroy it. If you do it, place Ashi-Dhulu on the space that figure occupied. Ashi-Dhulu does not take any leaving engagement attacks when using the Devour power.
It allow him to move one space more, and more heigth (but it would require very special map configuration, so I suppose it is ok), but it is simple. When I read this power, I picture Ashi Dhulu not appearing right under the devored figure, but just next, "jumping" (sorry, don't find a more appropriate word. I don't picture him to be fully out of the earth) out of the earth, opening his mouth and falling back on the poor figure to devour it.

Another idea, regrouping the powers :
Quote:

DEVOURING UNDERGROUND MOVEMENT
Instead of moving and attacking normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may choose a non-water space that is within 4 spaces of Ashi-Dhulu and is no higher than 1 level above Ashi-Dhulu's height or 3 levels below Ashi-Dhulu's base. If a small or medium figure is on this space, destroy it.
If Ashi-Dhulu can then be placed on this space, immediatly place him on. If not, destroy Ashi-Dhulu. Ashi-Dhulu doesn't take leaving engagement attacks when moved by the Devour power.
The "If not, destroy Ashi-Dhulu" prevent you to choose a space where Ashi-Dhulu could not fit, or a space where there is a figure that he could not devour. The idea is from the card of Kursus.
With this version, he can go on a glyph. However, apart from that, I think it do what you want it to do, and with only one power.

I like how it can be used to destroy Ashi Dhulu if he is Enslaved by a mind flayer. In fact, a more flavorfull power could be :
Spoiler Alert!

Scytale January 31st, 2014 10:45 AM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Devour isn't getting any simpler, and Improved Cyberclaw (mentioned elsewhere) isn't making things any simpler.

At this point I'm going to suggest losing some theme for simplicity. While it's thematic that he pops up underneath the thing he devours, it's not necessary. Simply give him Underground Movement (or a Stealth version) and Chomp (or a nerfed version). Popping up next to something and eating it isn't as cool, but it's much less tricky to word.

MegaSilver January 31st, 2014 12:25 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 1908519)
Devour isn't getting any simpler, and Improved Cyberclaw (mentioned elsewhere) isn't making things any simpler.

At this point I'm going to suggest losing some theme for simplicity. While it's thematic that he pops up underneath the thing he devours, it's not necessary. Simply give him Underground Movement (or a Stealth version) and Chomp (or a nerfed version). Popping up next to something and eating it isn't as cool, but it's much less tricky to word.

Well, it does extend the Threat Range of Devour, so I'll do it. Improved Cyberclaw does do it in, as Sir Dendrick pointed out.

Well, making that change makes the power simpler: Testing of the old version shows he still has trouble against squads and heroes, so I've made it to where he can attack too:

DEVOUR
Before attacking, choose one small or medium Common figure adjacent to Ashi-Dhulu and destroy it.

dok January 31st, 2014 01:01 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
You guys are making a rule issue where there is none.

Quote:

DEVOUR
Instead of moving and attacking normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may choose a small or medium Common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end Stealth Underground Movement. Destroy the chosen figure and immediately place Ashi-Dhulu on that space using Stealth Underground Movement.
Emphasis added.

If you are next to X17, you can't move there. If you can't end movement there, you can't choose the figure.

Improved Cyberclaw is a non-issue.

The language here flows pretty naturally from Trample Stomp. Nobody claims that TKN can stomp a figure on a single-space perch. This is no different. (The reason he can't end movement there is different, but it doesn't matter - the condition is not met so the power cannot be used.)

MegaSilver January 31st, 2014 01:03 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 1908569)
You guys are making a rule issue where there is none.

Quote:

DEVOUR
Instead of moving and attacking normally with Ashi-Dhulu, you may choose a small or medium Common figure on a space where Ashi-Dhulu could end Stealth Underground Movement. Destroy the chosen figure and immediately place Ashi-Dhulu on that space using Stealth Underground Movement.
Emphasis added.

If you are next to X17, you can't move there. If you can't end movement there, you can't choose the figure.

Improved Cyberclaw is a non-issue.

Okay... That makes sense too.

Now what?

dok January 31st, 2014 01:13 PM

Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
 
Playtesting and price balancing are the main things at this point, I guess.

I'll also say, contrary to Scytale, that I liked him as a Demon. I don't think it's hard to justify, looking at the figure, and I generally prefer re-using classes/species/personalities when there's an appropriate choice. But just make sure whatever you choose is consistent with your vision for the figure.


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