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IAmBatman July 13th, 2019 09:58 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2296433)
I fought the lawn and the lawn won.

Sounds like most of my weekends, really ....

IAmBatman July 13th, 2019 10:43 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Feeling good enough about things as is that I'm not going to run a fourth test here. I'm recommending moving forward with the rules as is and 3 Life and 4 Defense on the Sports Cars.

IAmBatman July 13th, 2019 10:43 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: SPORTS CAR/DRAFTABLE VDO RULES

***Testing Sports Car with 4 Life and 5 Defense****

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Martian Manhunter (300), Black Canary (190), Oracle (110), Robin (Dick) (100), Green Arrow (150), Sports Car (x2) (200), Red Arrow (150) (1200) vs Fantastic Four (1,000), Wasp (I) (50), Iceman (150) (1200)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________
***Testing Sports Car with 3 Life and 4 Defense****
Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Captain America (240), Ms. Marvel (350), Sharon Carter (90), Wasp (50), Sports Car (x2) (200), Beast (170) (1100) vs Black Canary (190), Oracle (110), Green Arrow (150), Red Arrow (150), Batman (I) (200), Robin (Dick Grayson) (100), Lady Blackhawk (110), Commissioner Gordon (90) (1100)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

***Testing Sports Car with 3 Life and 4 Defense****


Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Lady Blackhawk (110), Iron Man (Hasbro) (240), Invisible Woman (215), Mister Fantastic (235), Sports Car (x2) (200) (1,000)
vs Original X-Men (1,000)

Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Tornado July 13th, 2019 11:02 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
That looked fun.
Glad you tested that build.

IAmBatman July 13th, 2019 11:04 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Yeah, it was! First test where enemy combatants got into the car.

If anyone's stuck on army building, here's the one I had lined up but discarded: Invisible Woman (215), Wasp (I) (50), Atom (Ray Palmer) (50), Mister Fantastic (235), Iceman (150), Sports Car (x2) (200) (900)

Tornado July 16th, 2019 07:51 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2295593)
Walmart. Made by someone called Greenlight. Vintage Gas Station. Chevron Gasolines. 1:64
I have only seen it at one.store though but I believe it is available online.
It is die-cast metal and pretty sweet.
Garage doors open and close. Weird thing is there is no roof on the garage but that is easy to modify. Oh and the side wall of the garage is removable.

I think I got this at Mejeir. You may be able to find it at Target as well.

Lazy Orang July 16th, 2019 08:07 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
I lost track ages ago here - could I have an overview of where the rules are right now?

IAmBatman July 16th, 2019 09:05 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
From the OP:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2207176)
Current Rules Under Test:
-Link here

The Sports Car is being tested at 3 Life, 4 Defense, 100 points with these rules.

Arch-vile August 6th, 2019 04:20 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
I have a lot of questions so I make sure I will be testing correctly; apologies in advance. :) I see the Sports Car is being changed to 3 life, 4 defense, 100 points. (That should be in the OP.)

First, anything special you want tested here?

Are Sports Cars full cover & uncommon?

Figures in a full cover vehicle can still use special powers that don't require clear sight (and attack if they don't need clear sight, like many Telepaths), correct?

There are no specific exit/entry sites for Sports Cars, correct?

You start the game with no one in your Sports Car(s), correct?

Say I have Batman & Robin in a vehicle. Batman is in the driver's seat, and he exits the vehicle. Is Robin now in the driver's seat?

Figures cannot stand on top of the Sports Car, correct? I'm assuming that section is in the rules for the mole machine vehicle.

Say Batman is in a Sports Car. Can Batman attack the Sports Car he is in? (This would probably never happen.)

IAmBatman August 6th, 2019 04:26 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Good call. I'll update the SP in a jiff here.

Nothing in particular jumps to mind, though figures like Invisible Woman and Wasp that can't bit hit from range are useful. I guess just try to 1. Break it and 2. See if it's fun.

Sports cars are partial cover (they have windows) and uncommon. So figures can use clear sight powers through a Sports Car, they just can't engage through it.

If it were full cover (which it's not) your reading on which powers/attacks could be used is correct.

Correct, no specific entrances. That's more for planning for large structures/huge vehicles in the future.

Correct, you start with no one in it. It does start in your start zone, though.

It requires a specific movement to go from the passenger seat to the driver's seat. Just like in real life. :-D Unlike in real life, you can easily do it in a "moving" vehicle, between activations.

We haven't technically ruled on standing on the Sports Car or not, but I'm going to lean towards "no, it's too small." It ultimately depends on the exact figure used. I'm not sure how it was with @tcglkn 's original approach.

Sports cars are never engaged but you can be adjacent to them and you can target them and attack them. Any figure inside the vehicle is considered adjacent to the vehicle. So Batman could attack it, yes.

IAmBatman August 6th, 2019 04:26 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Thanks for taking this on!

Yodaking August 6th, 2019 04:30 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2302329)
It requires a specific movement to go from the passenger seat to the driver's seat. Just like in real life. :-D Unlike in real life, you can easily do it in a "moving" vehicle, between activations.


Wait, what? You've never switched seats with the driver while going 55mph down the road before? I saw Smokey and the Bandit as a kid and they made it look so easy.

Arch-vile August 6th, 2019 04:41 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Thanks Bats! I'm excited to give the cars a try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2302329)
It requires a specific movement to go from the passenger seat to the driver's seat. Just like in real life. :-D Unlike in real life, you can easily do it in a "moving" vehicle, between activations.

What specific movement is this? Is this just a free action you can do anytime?

IAmBatman August 6th, 2019 04:49 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2302333)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2302329)
It requires a specific movement to go from the passenger seat to the driver's seat. Just like in real life. :-D Unlike in real life, you can easily do it in a "moving" vehicle, between activations.

Wait, what? You've never switched seats with the driver while going 55mph down the road before? I saw Smokey and the Bandit as a kid and they made it look so easy.

I mean, it's definitely thematic to allow it. :-P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arch-vile (Post 2302343)
Thanks Bats! I'm excited to give the cars a try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2302329)
It requires a specific movement to go from the passenger seat to the driver's seat. Just like in real life. :-D Unlike in real life, you can easily do it in a "moving" vehicle, between activations.

What specific movement is this? Is this just a free action you can do anytime?

Good question. I need to look at the rules as written for that one .... :-P I assume it's the same as what you do to get in the car and get in the driver's seat to begin with, but we may not have laid that out.

IAmBatman August 6th, 2019 04:53 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Doesn't look specified. I think we need rules for moving around within a vehicle. I think you'd basically have to use your movement to shift seats, though, and couldn't also drive that turn. At least unless another figure gave you a bonus move that you used to move into that seat (like Arsenal or something).

Arch-vile August 6th, 2019 05:03 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Makes sense to me. We'll just have to remember to add that to the rules.

Spidey'tilIDie August 6th, 2019 05:31 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2302329)
It requires a specific movement to go from the passenger seat to the driver's seat. Just like in real life. :-D Unlike in real life, you can easily do it in a "moving" vehicle, between activations.

LOL, you obviously didn't know my friends and I when we were in high school. Lots of stupid stunts pulled back then for laughs. Good times! (that I was lucky to live through!)

IAmBatman August 6th, 2019 05:32 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
:lol: Well it has no real chance of crashing the car in our version anyway.

Lazy Orang August 6th, 2019 05:44 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Shouldn't there be a possibility of crashing a vehicle?

Yodaking August 6th, 2019 05:50 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Only if an alien is driving the car, they wouldn't be able to figure out how our primitive technology works.

IAmBatman August 6th, 2019 05:50 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2302398)
Shouldn't there be a possibility of crashing a vehicle?

I mean, most of the time something crashes into a vehicle. Vehicles don't usually just crash into something unless the driver is a bit messed up.

I'm not sure how to integrate that into the mechanics either, particularly about one playtest away. That might be something to handle on individual vehicles better.

quozl August 6th, 2019 05:52 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2302407)
Only if an alien is driving the car, they wouldn't be able to figure out how our primitive technology works.

Push pedal, car go VROOM!!!

Arch-vile August 6th, 2019 05:54 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
The Sports Car already has the hit & run power which is basically a purposeful crash.

Maybe we can have a crash mechanic on a stick shift VDO. :D

IAmBatman August 7th, 2019 08:45 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Actually, any thoughts on how to write up movement within a VDO? I figure some will be as small as two or four passengers, but some will be much bigger, like the Mole Machine or even larger, so a catch all ruling for how to move around inside of them might be tough to write.

Yodaking August 7th, 2019 08:55 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Maybe charge a set number of move to switch seats, so you can change seats at any time you just have to slow down a little and don't move as far as a result.

IAmBatman August 7th, 2019 09:17 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
What about engagement and all that? Should characters be attacking/engaging/in clear sight of each other if they're both in the vehicle?

I feel like we established this in the rules somewhere. I need to reread.

IAmBatman August 7th, 2019 09:18 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
There it is!

Quote:

Figures inside a Vehicle that is Large or smaller are considered adjacent to each other and the Vehicle itself, but are never considered adjacent to or engaged with figures outside of the Vehicle.
So if figures in Vehicles of that size want to move to the Driver's seat, it should just be empty and cost them 1 movement space. Makes sense.

And Huge Vehicles can be their own thing with their own map that we can handle later.

IAmBatman August 7th, 2019 09:28 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Updated the link in the OP with this:

Quote:

Any time a Player could move a figure that is occupying a Large or smaller Vehicle one space or more, they may choose to move that figure to any other empty space inside that Vehicle. Since all spaces inside a Vehicle of this size are considered to be within one space of each other, figures moved this way will not take leaving engagement attacks.

Yodaking August 7th, 2019 09:43 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Remind me of why we decided to designate a driver. I know it was for a good reason but I don't recall what it was. Knowing why a driver designation matters might help better understand how switching drivers could be impacted.

IAmBatman August 7th, 2019 09:46 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Well it's thematic, for one. Having a four passenger car that any passenger can drive on their turn is really weird thematically.

Mechanically, it does two things:

1. It doesn't let you double/triple/etc. up on driving activations, like with Invisible Woman and Mister Fantastic together in the car or something.
2. If figures from more than one Player's Army occupy the car, the Driver's space establishes who has control of the vehicle.

Yodaking August 7th, 2019 10:18 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
I guess that is what I was getting at. If Reed reveals an OM and rolls a 20 with the whole Fan4 in the car, did we just allow Ben to drive, then Johnny to jump into the drivers seat and drive, then Sue switches in and drives, and finally Reed moves into the drivers seat and drive a 4th time all in one turn. I agree you should be able to switch seats without leaving and reentering the car like a Chinese fire drill, but perhaps doing so should require your full move then so you can switch seats or drive the car but not both.

IAmBatman August 7th, 2019 10:20 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
The driver's seat has to be empty to move into it per what I wrote (which makes sense - how can you move into an occupied space?). A figure has to give up their movement to drive. I'm not sure if we have any figures that have the right combination of turn bonding and other figure movement make a double driving turn happen. If they do, I might just give it to them. :lol:

Are there any Mutants that throw a figure before moving or that can throw multiple figures including themselves? That's the level of thing we'd need for that to trigger so far as I can tell.

Yodaking August 7th, 2019 10:27 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
I still had it in my head we were talking about the smokey and the bandit switch while driving move. If you can only move into an empty drivers seat, then just as long as someone does drive then jump out of the car we should be good. Only figures I can think of are Flash and Supergirl can get a bonus second move, I'm okay with them driving then jumping out as it's just a power on their card being used.

IAmBatman August 7th, 2019 10:35 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Ah, OK, I got it. Professor X's Order Marker. Jean Grey can drive the car, Telekinesis herself outside of the car/to another seat, then Cyclops can move over. Of course, he just used his move, so he can't drive it.

Yeah not too worried.

MrNobody August 7th, 2019 10:46 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
How to do a Chinese Fire Drill, Summers family style.

IAmBatman August 7th, 2019 10:59 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Swap Cyclops for Magneto and you can toss Jean back into the passenger seat. You are losing a lot of utility, though.

Arch-vile August 8th, 2019 06:46 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Drafting Vehicles / Sports Car

Sports Car at 3 life, 4 defense, 100 points.

Army Test
Map: Country Road
Units: Bane, Deadshot, Catman, Sports Car x1 (610) VS Luke Cage, Daredevil II, Jessica Jones (610)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Country Road
Units: Fantastic 4, Sports Car x1 (1100) VS Yellow Lanterns: Arkillo, Sinestro, Sinestro Corps Soldier x3, Manhunter x1 (1110)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Country Road
Units: Fantastic 4, Sports Car x1 (1100) VS Captain America C3G, Iron Man Avengers, Black Widow, Thor (1110)
Spoiler Alert!



THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Sports Cars are fragile but offer a useful mobility option for figures, which especially helps figures like Invisible Woman. Free movement for supporting figures is very powerful and it showed here. The car also provides protection from melee attacks for its occupants. However, you pay for it and it requires some turn investment early on to get people in the car.

I think the car is fine at 100 points overall. It’s strong with cheerleader units but not unbeatable as my tests showed. In fact, the car usually falls quickly.


GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: Lots of fun. Looking forward to drafting more vehicles.

IAmBatman August 8th, 2019 06:52 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Sweet. I will hold for comments here, particularly from @Tornado and @Ronin since we are kind of sharing this LD but I feel good moving to Final Editing as is.

Tornado August 8th, 2019 07:23 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Thanks Arch!
Sounds good, glad we lowered durability and it does not feel as tanky.
Would not mind hearing from Soundwarp here.

quozl August 8th, 2019 10:34 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Pre-Yea

Soundwarp SG-1 August 9th, 2019 02:11 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2303258)
Thanks Arch!
Sounds good, glad we lowered durability and it does not feel as tanky.
Would not mind hearing from Soundwarp here.

I'll look it over tomorrow. Sorry, haven't really been paying attention to this, not something I care about at all personally.

IAmBatman August 9th, 2019 08:20 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2303301)
Pre-Yea

Thanks. I'm banking that one. :-D

Tornado August 9th, 2019 08:44 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Cool, thanks SW. I just want to make sure we are not missing something here.

IAmBatman August 10th, 2019 04:41 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles - Public Playtesting
 
Moved this to design threads where it really belongs after all.

I'd love to hear from Soundwarp still if he's up for it, but I'm confident that this version at least with this VDO (draftable Sports Car) isn't breaking anything or causing competitive concerns. With quozl's confidence and pre-yea, I'm proposing we move this to Final Editing.

Soundwarp SG-1 August 10th, 2019 07:32 PM

Re: The Book of Draftable Vehicle Rules - VOTE for Final Edi
 
Sorry, there is a lot of stuff in here. Some random thoughts:

So the rules for Huge Vehicles haven’t been written yet correct?

I think it could be more clear if Vehicles can engage figures/ make leaving engagement attacks. The wording seems to imply that they can given it talks about how they won’t take leaving engagement attacks and can’t make leaving engagement attacks ‘while moving’ which seems to indicate they can do so otherwise.

What happens if you give a Vehicle Ghost/Phantom Walk? Would all the figures inside also move through someone for the purposes of Archangel type powers? How would moving a partial cover Vehicle into range of Warmachine work? I think the ‘everybody is moving at once’ part feels like the area with the most potential hiccups.



Anyway, I can’t think of anything especially broken you can do here. Will definitely be something that future designs will have to check themselves against though.

I can’t speak to fun gameplay etc., but I the rules seem fine if they’re doing what y’all want them to do.

IAmBatman August 10th, 2019 07:43 PM

Re: The Book of Draftable Vehicle Rules - VOTE for Final Edi
 
Vehicles are never engaged. I’ll endeavor to clarify that.

In the ghost walk scenario all passengers would pass through, yeah. Not a power I’m eager to hand out to VDOs.

The everybody moving at once is just like group teleportation powers that place. War-Machine could target them all, in his chosen order.

Tornado August 10th, 2019 10:57 PM

Re: The Book of Draftable Vehicle Rules - VOTE for Final Edi
 
Yea

Yodaking August 10th, 2019 11:26 PM

Re: The Book of Draftable Vehicle Rules - VOTE for Final Edi
 
yea


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