|
Boot Camp of Valhalla--Draft Chosen!
This thread is for centralizing and maintaining all aspects of the design process for this round of the Boot Camp of Valhalla. I am creating this thread in order to organize the discussion and to have a consistent place to collect and update relevant information.
For reference, this is the miniature we have chosen to work with: https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ith_peanut.jpg (Thank you bmon for the mini photos) Rest of old OP:
Spoiler Alert!
The rest of this post will serve as a directory for the process. The second post will contain the most up-to-date version of the unit. Boot Camp of Valhalla Draft Voting Thread --For use in referencing other drafts that did not win and for measuring their relative popularity. Beginning of Discussion on Winning Draft |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Original Design Draft (assembled by Tornado and voted on by the 'Scapers community)
Spoiler Alert!
Current Design: Queen Listaria Ullar Elf Unique Hero Queen Resolute Large 6 Life = 5 Move = 8 Range = 1 Attack = 5 Defense = 4 POINTS = 150?? ULLAR'S BATTLE DANCE After rolling defense dice for a figure that you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Listaria who follows Ullar, you may move another figure that you control who follows Ullar up to 4 spaces. If a figure moving with Ullar's Battle Dance is engaged when it starts to move, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks. Ullar's Battle Dance can only be used once per turn. ELVEN BATTLE CALL If Listaria is engaged, then all Elves that you control, except Listaria, move one additional space. SNOW STRENGTH Add 1 to Listaria's attack and defense while on a snow space. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Personally, I like the idea of a hybrid unit with some elements of synergy but being able to fight on the frontlines as well. The sculpt looks like a fighter to me, but I can also see some arguments being made about the Elf being of royal blood or having some ties to the other Elves.
If we did want to go this route, though, we would need to think about which Elves she is "designed" to go with. The Elf Wizards can be reasonably ignored, but the Aubriens and Warriors of Ashra are both wildly different, both in mechanics and in theme. There's also the idea of making her like Syvarris or Sonlen in that she can work with the other Elves, but she can also work in many different other armies. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
The mini feels like it lends itself to someone who leads from the front, so I'll say Option Three.
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
I agree with option 3.
There's something about the figure that does not feel terribly leader like. I think it's just that the rider is smaller in relation to the other elves. I know history is peppered with leaders small in stature, but it does feel odd. I can try to snap some pictures of the mini alongside the likes of Aubrien archers and WoA. That might help show what I mean. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
Honestly, doesn't bother me - the figure looks regal and the pose looks commanding. That means more to me than physical stature here. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
I suspect the ideas I’ve submitted thus far would fit in Option 3. Snap judgments in favor of size and brawn, over courage and intelligence? See David and Goliath. Anyways, the Wolf is intimidating enough. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Option 3
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
I’m comfortable with Options 1 or 3. A standalone unique hero does not sound inspirational enough to have a solid chance at entering the SoV, especially if the unit in question probably won’t do much other than fight and receive slight synergies.
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
Current Consensus Elf, Unique Hero, Ullar Current Discussion What direction to take: Synergistic/leader type figure, standalone figure, or a hybrid of the two? BTW, All Your Pie, thanks so much for taking over the lead on this! |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
I like the idea of her being a front line leader for the Warriors of Ashra, possibly the Elf Queen of that city. Not sure how she should help them yet, though...
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Forced hard synergy isn't going to get through the process. Especially forcing synergy on existing stand-alone units. There is currently a lot of pushback to the "everything has to synergize" design philosophy.
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
Our hybrid leader has a fine line to walk. I think Mogrimm is one. He bonds, but is strong enough without it to be drafted on his own hook - certainly in a heroes only game. . . . |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
I think Option 1 is actually two different things stuck together.
A "bonding class" hero doesn't really increase the synergy in the game, and would have little problems in the SoV. A hero with highly synergistic powers greatly increases the synergy in the game, and would have major problems in the SoV. That said, it looks like 3 is a consensus, so it's a moot point. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
Now I’m not clear . . . Does this mean that bonding our Wolfrider directly to the Warriors of Ashra would be more acceptable than a power affecting all Elves, or Friendly units? Up till now, I thought it was the opposite. BTW, we could also give her Defensive Agility . . . To be more specific, when you say highly synergistic powers, what do you mean? Examples of types of powers and their relative levels of acceptance would help clarify this issue. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
I think superfrog means it's ok to create a new hero that can bond, like a Warlord or Human Champion. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
My personal preference is for option 2. I won't push too hard for this since it seems like it's unanimously unfavorable, but I will go ahead and explain my reasoning. I think a lot of the pushback on it is based on an assumption that the SoV is not very interested in accepting standalone fantasy heroes, in the vein of many of the D&D heroes. I think that avoiding that critique would be relatively simple for a large, double-based figure that can aim for a higher point bracket or a different army role. I also think that the design would not have any more trouble justifying its existence as a unsynergistic figure than a synergistic one--in fact, I think the opposite is true, that a synergistic figure will be much trickier to design and face much harsher scrutiny.
Beyond that, though, it looks like option 3 is pretty much the consensus. Based on the comments of the community as well as the judges, I'll try and define what that means: a hero figure with some light synergy elements that does not add another broad synergistic power into the game. What this could include is a bonding class such as warlord, or a very tightly controlled power that leaves very few options open (for instance, something that was narrow enough to call out a specific other unit rather than a broad possible range of them). What are not likely to serve the design well are fairly complex or broad synergy interactions. These would include any type of reverse squad bonding or turn efficiency in a broad faction. So, what we should consider is what type of synergy power to give (perhaps a power that allows other units to help this figure, rather than the other way around?) or, possibly, to not give one at all and to simply give her a synergistic class. As an example, something like "WARRIORS OF ASHRA MOVEMENT BONDING" might fit well on the card, as it is a highly specific synergy that won't interact directly with any future design space (just don't put it on the card if she's also a warlord). I'm not advocating for that specific option, but I think that if a power is more open-ended then that on a hybrid figure than it likely needs to be scaled back. Another direction to consider is that a non-leader figure should not be drastically improving the OM efficiency of your army. A design that works well with the WoA or Aubriens shouldn't eliminate the OM decisions of playing those squads with a hero, even if that hero benefits them specifically. Great discussion so far! If there isn't much else in the way of disagreement, I'll update the SP a bit later with the directions as it seems to be decided. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
My problem with calling out a specific Elf unit for bonding is that, imo, this figure has a substantial difference in aesthetic from the classic Heroscape Elves. Tying this Elf specifically to the Warriors of Ashra, for example, feels wrong to me. This figure is regal in heavy metal armor with a mount that feels very arctic, like she came from some High Elf kingdom in the cold North. The Warriors of Ashra have a woodland warrior feel that almost reminds me of something like the Ewoks. So it doesn’t entirely make sense to me that she’d work just with them. I’d maybe rather see a synergy-free hero than one with a specifc call-out.
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
A large hero has a lot better chance of making it through the process. A mounted elf might be pushing it a bit, but I think it would be ok. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
Another option would be a power somewhat like Knight's Courage from Sir Dupuis that incentives you to play with certain units while not granting them any explicit synergy. Alternatively, something like Mogrimm's Commander's Strike that is balanced to work with any unit might be a workable direction. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
In my eyes, the "hybrid" route would be something along the lines of Sir Dupuis, like AYP noted. I don't think that "X gets +1 attack for every Elf within Y clear sight spaces" is particularly inspired on its own, but something along those lines is a lot more palatable to me.
I do actually love the idea of an expensive and powerful standalone Elf, though. It reminds me of the original dragons, and that has a ton more design space to explore than designing around a specific squad. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Not my call but I would consider this Elf in Jandar, getting away from the classic Elves in scape, more than the other generals.
I see her more as a scout but with movement bonding or bonus to any squad of wild hunters with 1 attack for her mount and one for her. So I guess I'm kinda disagreeing with the thread direction...sorry about that. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
As for your idea of a scout, I think that might actually fit pretty well in the direction we've chosen to go--a mechanically hybrid figure that can both pull her weight offensively (perhaps with some kind of multi-attack) and with some light synergy. I, personally, see the figure as much more of a front-line fighter than a nimble scout due to the stance of the miniature and her heavy armor, but I think further clarifying this direction is the next step in this process. So, I think at this point we should start brainstorming powers and statlines in order to start figuring out how we want to represent our chosen direction. Some suggestions so far would be an Ullar warlord or a figure with a Knight's Courage-type power, but feel free to explore other ideas or help refine others. Ideally, we'll be able to put together a few rough design drafts that we can decide between in going forward. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Honestly, I know it's perhaps not too inspired, but what about something like Elf Leadership, in the vein of MDG? I've always felt like 5 Move was weirdly slow for elves, and a number of the Elves (particularly the Warriors of Ashra) likely wouldn't mind the mobility boost. It's also short and sweet enough to give her some fun combat ability, enough of a small boost rather then heavy bonding to not be frowned on, and gives her a feeling of being a leader.
Perhaps make her an Ullar Warlord on top of that, because let's be honest here, the Armocs could use another friend. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
LEADING THE CHARGE
If this figure is engaged, all Common Elf figures you control may Move one additional space. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
Quote:
Theya Wolfsister Ullar, Elf, Inspiring, Warlord, Large, Life 6, Move 8, Range 1, Attack 4, Defense 5. Protector [of Ullar] 13 Choose a Unique Hero you control [that follows Ullar]. If that Hero is attacked by an opponent’s figure within 6 spaces of Theya and receives at least one wound, you may move Theya adjacent to that opponent’s figure and roll a 20-sided die. On a roll of 13 or higher, that figure receives a wound. Wolfsister Theya has the Relentless Personality as well as the one on her card. Wellspring Spear Special Attack Range 1, Attack 3 When Theya attacks with Wellspring Spear Special Attack, she may attack a second time. If she inflicts at least one wound with each attack, remove one wound marker from Theya’s card. Defensive Agility [Reduce Defense to 3] |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
If I may riff on your suggestion somewhat... Bonds of Battle At the start of the game, choose a unique hero you control who follows Ullar (or a unique elf hero, maybe). When [figure name] attacks, if the chosen figure is within 4 clear sight spaces, they may attack one additional time for each wound marker on the chosen figure's card. (up to a maximum of 4, maybe?) I will say, though, that I'm not sure I like the idea of making her a warlord with a power like this. To me, all that does is encourage playing her with the Azurite Warlord rather than with the armocs specifically. Even if we don't go in a direction where the wounds on the chosen figure matter, the easy OM management of them both being bonding heroes would make the power too easy to set up and use. My inclination is that a warlord direction should not have any explicit synergy powers, and instead be synergistic by virtue of her class alone. That's just my take though, others may disagree. Great suggestions so far! Some variation of leadership could be fun as well. Keep 'em coming! |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
EWell met!
Quote:
I'm also inclined not to be Ullar specific, hence the brackets. Or give her a different Class - Protector. As an Ullar figure, some sort of protector Power was said to make more sense than a purely destructive power. I'm confused about Bonds of Battle. Is Theya allowed extra attacks based on the number of wounds the chosen figure has received? There might be a problem with normal versus Special Attacks. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
I’ve said before that I could see her as the captain of the royal guard, that would make a ton of sense for that ability.
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Moving Archer (spec attack; Range 3, Attack 2)
During the movement phase Theya Wolfsister may fire her bow. Added to Bonds of Battle (which IMHO should only be an extra attack for the chosen figure) would make her a true leader. Her normal attack (even for the bow) could be higher because at that point she's not moving around on a snarly beast. I keep going back to the pic of the figure and thinking Scout over Warlord but I see why the thread's thinking Ullar. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
Spoiler Alert!
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Does that mean a Disintegration Ray is out of the question? :)
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
What kind of consensus can we reach as to her Leadership p Special Power? What will SoV accept? Leader/Fighter/Protector with what kind of benefit to what units? The appearance of the sculpt may imply a number of things. 1. Dual Personalities. Inspiring/Relentless for example. 2. Two Attacks. SoV likes simple. We like unique. I like unique use of simple. Double Attack would pass SoV. There might be consensus on a normal and a Special Attack. A normal attack of 4 and a Special Attack of 3 with conditions would be a good balance. Wellspring Spear Special Attack for example. 3. Defense. Armor and Shield - Defense 5 and/or a defensive power related to them. Elf - Defensive Agility. Wolf - Enraged Strike. Has anyone considered that she might be a northern Drow? If I had not already given them to my SoV candidate Kha, I'd suggest giving Theya Double Assault combined with Poisoned Weapons. Double Attack/Poisoned Weapons would work if no range desired. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
Wow! My glasses really do need replacing. That was my entire thought behind the Scout vs Warlord idea...back to the drawing board. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
If we settle on Theya being a Warlord, the rest of the design can be standalone - meaning no other Leadership Power is necessary. We can then proceed to making her formidable in her own right. Passing Slash Special Attack Range 1, Attack 4 Theya may attack with Passing Slash Special Attack before, during or after she moves. She will take no leaving engagement attacks when using Passing Slash Special Attack. [Disengage included within this Power.] Nice with Enraged Strike 13 or some other riposte power. Rending Riposte If Theya is attacked with a normal attack and no skulls are rolled by the attacker, the attacker receives a wound. I suggest again Defense 5 to represent her armor. Life 6, Move 8, Range 1, Attack 4. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Would it be accurate to say that our current decision is between making this figure a Warlord or by coming up with a synergistic power but making her class someone else? We could run a poll to decide which direction to go with, but I want to make sure there aren't any other options people still want to discuss or pursue.
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
In the case presented, I feel Warlord is the best fit. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
I think that looks about right. Now that we've pretty much all settled on an Ullar Elf Rider with some level of synergy, we need to decide whether we should go for a bonding class like Warlord or to use a power on her own card.
Personally, I like the class of Warlord over the other options. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
Warlord is an easier compromise over selecting from among the myriad powers we have/could come up with. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
I personally don’t see the figure as a warlord of some big army, but I don’t think it’s the end of the world.
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Something I’ve been toying with for an Ullar Warlord, and thought I’d drop it off here.
ULLAR’S BATTLE DANCE After a figure you control that follows Ullar rolls defense dice against a normal attack, you may move a figure you control that is within 8 clear sight spaces of [elf hero] up to 4 spaces. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Not a fan of Warlord here. Warlord ties into an already strong synergy web.
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Well met!
Quote:
With Battle Dance, I'd draft Tetriades. Spiked Gauntlet could give me multiple attacks during my opponent's turn. |
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
|
Re: Boot Camp of Valhalla Design Thread
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:40 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by
Advanced User Tagging (Lite) -
vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.