What's in an Order Marker? (D1, D2, and D3 up)
 

What’s in an Order Marker?

This is a classification of order marker usage in Heroscape- another factor to consider when forming an army beyond basic synergy and unit strength. It is somewhat similar to Agatagary’s classification of units: but instead of focusing on cost, it focuses on turn productivity. It is also inspired by the work of spider_poison, gamjuven, UPC, and many others in their discussion of competitive armies.

Warm colors describe units on which you will place the majority of your order markers.

Cool colors describe units that are good even when they don't take many turns.

Purple and dark red describe units somewhere in between.

Black units should be avoided when making pre-made armies.

Bread and Butter
These are the types of squads on which you never regret putting an order marker. You get a lot out of each turn, and they are usually durable enough to see their next one. In the case of bonding units, it is usually assumed that you’ll use the appropriate supporting players (i.e. Krug and Swogs for Arrow Gruts, appropriate Champions for Knights and Gruts, etc.) It is not uncommon for you to spend all three of your turns on (or build armies around) units like these. Beginning with Master Set 2, Marvel, and Wave 8, we are also starting to see some heroes who function similarly- these heroes will from the core of your army and dispense their orders to swarms of commons or lesser heroes.

Examples: Arrow Gruts, Axegrinders of Burning Forge, Blade Gruts, Valiant 4th. Massachusetts Line, 10th Regiment of Foot, Blastatrons, Capuan Gladiators, Heavy Gruts, Knights of Weston, Roman Legionnaires, Sacred Band, Greenscale Warriors, Goblin Cutters, Fire Elemental
Core heroes: Kurrok the Elementalist, Kato Katsuro, Ulginesh, Marro Hive, Red Skull

Uses: Build an army around these guys: they can do it all. Get more of them (at least 2-3 of the same common squads.) They don't work well in conjunction with Sharks (discussed below.) They work great with Cheerleaders.

Cheerleaders
These units are better seen and not heard. You might put an order marker or two on them in the early rounds to get them into position, but after that, they really don’t give you all that much out of a turn. They also usually have some sort of powerful aura that makes them actually useful without a single order marker on them! You should do your best to defend them, as your opponent will often try to ambush them. These units won’t kill their points-worth most of the time, but they will enable others to do much more.

Examples: Atlaga, Raelin, Laglor, Taelord, Venoc Warlord, Mogrimm Forgehammer, Kyntela Gwyn, Sonya Esenwein, Nakita Agents, Estivara, Torin, Hatamoto Taro, Omnicron Repulsors (with snipers)
Cheerleaders that bond: Marcus Decimus Gallus, Thorgrim, Finn, Sir Gilbert, Nerak, Ornak, Swog Rider, Spartacus, Khosumet the Darklord

Uses: These fit in well with any army that they can apply their bonuses to. Just make sure to pick up enough units to actually go out and kill stuff for you.

Defenders
Very simliar in order marker usage to Cheerleaders, but the main difference is that you want them to draw fire. That’s what they do best. If a Squad, they make great glyph-securers, and map controllers. If a Hero, engage the biggest thing you see.

Examples: Deathreavers, Brunak, Tandros Kreel, Concan, Warriors of Ashra, Izumi Samurai, Marro Dividers, Tarn Viking Warriors, Gladiatrons, Sentinels of Jandar, Marrden Hounds, Marcu Esenwein, Earth Elemental, Rhogar Dragonspine, Siege, Frost Giant of Morh
Defenders that also bond: Valguard, Charos, an unwounded Krug, Sir Denrick, Ne-Gok-Sa

Uses: Your goal when using this type of unit isn't to run around killing everything. It's to force your opponent to waste turns attacking them instead of your more vulnerable and/or dangerous figures, like Sharks, Cheerleaders, any ranged units, or Menacers (discussed below).

Sharks
These units appear at first to be identical in use to Bread and Butter units. They have lots of power and/or range, and they usually aren’t a waste of an order marker. However, the main difference between them and BB units is that you have to keep putting order markers on them: they have to keep moving or they die. They’re usually one or more of the following: unique, low defense, or expensive point-wise. They have an uncanny knack for drawing attention: once you activate them, you’ve gotta keep activating them and see how much havoc they can wreak.

Examples: Airborne Elite, Aubrien Archers, Jotun, Cyprien Esenwein, Zelrig, Zombies of Morindan, Fyorlag Spiders, Armoc Vipers, Wolves of Badru, Othkurik the Black Dragon, Marro Drones, MacDirk Warriors, Omnicron Snipers, The Einar Imperium, Kozuke Samurai, Grok Riders, Templar Cavalry, Venoc Vipers, Iskra Esenwein and her Rechets, Deathchasers of Thesk, Ashigaru Yari/Harquebus, Non-Valiant 4th Mass, Deathwalkers on a bad day
Sharks that also bond: Alastair MacDirk, Mimring, Darrak Ambershard, Retiarius, Wo-Sa-Ga, Wyvern, Ogre Pulverizer, Ice Troll Berserker, Werewolf Lord, Moltenclaw, Nilfheim, Braxas, Su-Bak-Na, Sujoah, Venoc Warlord, a severely wounded Krug

Uses: These work well with Defenders first, and then Menacers and Cheerleaders about equally. Use the Defenders to tie up your enemies and allow the Sharks to choose their prey. Sharks and Menacers can both act as decoys for each other; pay attention to which group your opponent seems to focus on more and exploit that point. Cheerleaders might make them actually stand around for a bit longer than you think. Additionally, it is also important to note that Sharks do not make very good glyph holders. They need to take advantage of their mobility and attack values. Sitting in one place is a waste, and a common mistake when using Airborne Elite.

Menacers
Your opponent treats these units very much like Order Marker Sharks. They see them, and they do everything they can to kill them. The big difference is that these guys can actually take the punishment. Menacers combine high offense with high defense: this means that an order marker on them is not a waste, but you also don’t need to worry about them getting taken out exceptionally quickly. These guys are an excellent place to drop your X. I suppose the only real difference between these guys and BB units is the amount of fear they seem to bring out in opponents despite the fact that they often have fewer attacks than BB's.

Examples: Major Q9, Marro Stingers, Minions of Utgar, Tagawa Samurai Archers, Phantom Knights, Fen Hydra, Water Elemental, Shurrak, Warforged Soldiers, Death Knights of Valkrill, Mezzodemon Warmongers, Horned Skull Brutes, Mohican River Tribe, Protectors of Ullar, Granite Guardians, Quasatch Hunters, Deepwyrm Drow, Ninjas of the Northern Wind, Krav Maga Agents, Deathwalkers on a good day
Menacers who also bond: Krug- most of the time, Tor-Kul-Na, Ogre Warhulk, Crixus, Migol Ironwill, Grimnak, Sir Hawthorne, Sir Denrick slaying Giants

Uses: Similar to Sharks, only that they aren't as reliant on Defenders to be functional. They can make decent glyph-holders in a pinch.

Cleanup
These are usually single-based, ranged heroes that you just sit in the back and hope your opponent simply doesn’t notice them, or isn’t able to reach them until very late in the game. They don’t have enough attacks to be useful early on because they’d get taken out by enemy squads, but late in the game, they’re able to pick apart the survivors with alarming alacrity. They play very much like Sharks, but the key is just to wait until later on to use them.

Examples: Kaemon Awa, Marro Warriors, Syvarris, Major Q10, Sonlen, Guilty McCreech, Isamu, Sahuagin Raider, Greater Ice Elemental, Heirloom, Mika Connour, Mind Flayer Mastermind, Master of the Hunt, Eltahale, Evar Scarcarver, Tagawa Samurai, Zetacron, Zettian Guards, , Concan in a Valiant 4th army, Charos (in valiant army), Pelloth, Othkurik, Feral Troll, Sgt. Drake Alexander (both), Sir Dupuis, Iskra Esenwein (post or sans-Rechets)
Cleanup units that also bond: Me-Burq-Sa, Tornak, Arkmer, Jorhdawn, Brave Arrow

Uses: Depending on points, they can work well in nearly any army. Just try to keep them alive until it's their time to shine. Defenders and/or a sturdy Bread and Butter force are a plus.

Niche
Heroes, heroes, everywhere, and not a squad to bond! These are usually heroes that just don’t do enough on their turn to warrant an order marker (or points). These are the types of units that can be very useful in the right situation, but they are always a risk. If they ever add a unit that bonds with these guys, watch out! The squads mentioned are usually terrain specific or just kind of make you wonder why you spent an order marker on them. However, as an astute Top Chef contestant once put it it: "Sometimes, there's a fine line between being competitive, and just being an [abrasive individual that nobody really likes]." Don't be afraid to use these units with your friends; many of them are quite fun and interesting. Being put in this category isn't necessarily saying a figure is 'bad.' Some, like Theracus or Emiroon, can be extremely useful in the right situation, but their powers aren't directly related to beneficial auras, powerful attacks, or protecting other units, and their powers still require order markers to use.

Examples: Kee-Mo-Shi, Theracus, Major X-17, Sudema, Agent Carr, Dünd, Deadeye Dan, Dumutef Guard, Obsidian Guards, Dzu Teh, Erevan Sunshadow, Tul-Bak-Ra, Deathstalkers, Shades of Bleakewoode, Gorillinators, Marro Drudge, Moriko, Kumiko, Otonashi, Brandis Skyhunter, Sharwin Wildborn, Air Elemental, Drow Chainfighter, Wyrmlings, Iron Golem
Niche units that pseudo-bond: Morsbane, Emiroon, Runa

Uses: These are best used in casual games, or as a counter-draft to certain picks. DED works great against Minions of Utgar and Deathwalker 7k for example. Morsbane against Krug, Major X-17 v. Cyprien, Gorillinators against some guy who forgot his Swog Riders, etc...

Conclusion
People often forget order marker usage when designing an army. This is the main reason that people suggest using at least two of any common squad: most become an absolute waste if you only field one squad-they just don’t justify the point investment, and become a huge risk for order markers. Bread and Butter units work well when you just get a ton of them and weigh your opponent down with figures, with perhaps some cheerleader support. Additionally, taking an army with a ton of Cleanup figures and Sharks is doomed to failure if you don’t adequately protect it with some Defenders and/or Cheerleaders.

To illustrate these points, I’ll show some rough 500 point armies and how you might improve them. Visually, good armies should have a good mix of warm and cool colors.

Cleanup on Aisle Q9
Major Q9 (Menacer)
Kaemon Awa (Cleanup)
Krav Maga Agents (Menacer, possible Shark)
Syvarris (Cleanup)

This army has some great ranged units, but they lack the support they need to really shine.

Improved A: Q9 with Support (mattser’s GenCon 2007 tournament winner)
Major Q9 (Menacer)
Raelin (Cheerleader)
Laglor (Cheerleader)
Krav Maga Agents (Menacer)
Marcu (Cleanup)
Isamu (Cleanup)

The question when fighting this army isn’t “Can I take out Q9?” It’s, “Can I take out Q9 backed up by all of that crap?!”

Improved B :Cleanup and Sharks + Defenders (Rÿchean’s 2nd place army GC 2007)
Kaemon Awa (Cleanup)
Marro Warriors (Cleanup)
Krav Maga Agents (Menacer)
Airborne Elite (Shark)
3x Deathreavers (Defender)

The Deathreavers in this army really take out a lot of the risk that you take when fielding unique units. (Unless your d20 decides to screw you on The Drop.)

I like ORCS!!111!
Krug
1x Arrow Gruts (BB)
Grimnak
1x Heavy Gruts (BB)
Tornak
1x Blade Gruts (BB)
Isamu (Cleanup)
These are all great units, but getting one of each common just doesn’t do any of them justice. The order marker problem here is just having too many choices, none of which are very good.
Try:
Arrow Grut army (Truth):
3x Arrow Gruts (BB)
4x Swog Rider (Cheerleader, bonds)
Mimring (Shark, bonds)
Krug (Menacer, bonds)
Isamu (Cleanup)
or:
Orcish Horde!
Grimnak
Tornak
4x Heavy Gruts

2 Successful 400 point armies of the past:

The New Republic (thanks to UPC)
Marcus Decimus Gallus (Cheerleader, bonds)
2x Roman Legion (BB,Defender)
2x 4th Massachusetts Line (BB, Shark)
Me-Burq-Sa (Cleanup, bonds)

Although I don’t mention much about synergy in the majority of this piece, this army has a lot of it. Marcus is a very effective cheerleader for this army. There are 2 very useful common squads that work well with each other. The Romans tie up the enemy while the minutemen and MBS pick them apart. The Romans and 4th. Mass also show that some units may bleed across different categories when used in conjunction with each other. Melee BB units play a little more like defenders, and ranged ones like sharks. This army was highly successful before points rose to 500 and Q9 became a staple of the tournament scene.

Raelin and the Twelve Orcs [and a troll] (Thanks to spider poison)
Raelin (quite possibly the best Cheerleader)
3x Arrow Gruts (BB)
3x Swog Rider (Cheerleader, bonds)
Krug (bonds, Menacer)

This army takes the effective arrow grut army and makes it harder to kill. It won GenCon in 2006.

(After looking over the winning GenCon armies from the last two years, I see that they tend to be a little bluer than most. Perhaps defense wins championships in Heroscape too? It also explains to me why until the Marro Stingers and the rest of SotM arrived, an all Marro army was very difficult to make work: they're almost all sharks!)

For fun's sake, I'll add the NHSD 2007 champs' armies in this post with my color classifications:

spider_poison's "Tree Town Tyranny"
4x Marro Stingers 240
2x Deathreavers 320
Raelin (RotV) 400
Kaemon Awa 520
Isamu 530

Revdyer's "I messed with Texas"
4x 4th. Massachusetts Line 280
2x Sentinels of Jandar 500

Vydar's Florida Frenzy winner
2x Gladiatrons 160
2x Blastatrons 280
Major Q10 430 (out of 440, but he stayed under to stick to one general)

[I'll start looking for the battle reports for some of the other winners momentarily. If I skip you, feel free to PM me or reply to the thread.]

For additional information, be sure to check out the following articles and resources:

UranusPChicago's discussion of Order Markers

spider_poison's Heroscape Power Rankings

gamjuven's Idiot's Guide to Making a Competitive Army

Revdyer's list of dnutt99, Firemaster, rdhight, scorpiusx, Fallen Templar, and Menchy's carefullly catalogued Books of Heroscape

GaryLASQ's site with lots of cool stuff: http://heroscape.glasq.com/

For tips on how to best use many of the 'Niche' units, head over to the Unit Strategy Review Index

If you liked this, be sure to check out my other one about order markers. I've now added an order marker Q&A portion, which I intend to update when and if I get any Q's.

If you are a new player with a limited collection and would still like to put together some dangerous armies, take a look at my Cheap, but effective armies thread.

For a discussion of what these Order Marker classifications might mean for the future design of Heroscape, or good customs, take a look at OM III.

For some information about how these same classifications might change based on a variety of factors, check out OM IV

If you like my writing, and would like to subscribe to my newsletter... er... blog, check it out.

At Necroblade's request, here's a comprehensive list of all of the classic units released as of Wave 9. A * next to unit indicates common status. A + indicates a hero that bonds with a squad.

Bread and Butter
[Valiant] 4th Mass. Line (70*)
10th Regiment of Foot (75*)
Arrow Gruts (40*)
Axegrinders of Burning Forge (70*)
Blade Gruts (40*)
Blastatrons (60*)
Capuan Gladiators (70*)
Fire Elemental (35*+)
Goblin Cutters (50*)
Greenscale Warriors (60*)
Heavy Gruts (70*)
Kato Katsuro (200+)
Kurrok the Elementalist (120+)
Knights of Weston(70*)
Marro Hive (160+)
Roman Legionnaires (50*)
Ulginesh (150+)
Sacred Band (50*)

Defenders
Brunak (110)
Concan the Kyrie Warrior (80)
Deathreavers (40*)
Earth Elemental (35*+)
Frost Giant of Morh (140)
Gladiatrons (80*)
Izumi Samurai (60)
Marcu Esenwein (20)
Marrden Hounds (90*)
Marrden Nagrubs (30*)
Marro Dividers (50*)
Ne-Gok-Sa (90+)
Rhogar Dragonspine (110)
Sentinels of Jandar (110*)
Siege (120)
Sir Denrick (100+)
Tandros Kreel (120)
Tarn Viking Warriors (50)
Warriors of Ashra (50*)
Valguard (110+)

Menacers
Crixus (90+)
Death Knights of Valkrill (60*)
Deepwyrm Drow (70)*
Elite Onyx Vipers (100)
Fen Hydra (120)
Granite Guardians (100*)
Grimnak (120+)
Horned Skull Brutes (75*)
Krav Maga Agents (100)
Krug (120+)
Major Q9 (180)
Marro Stingers (60*)
Mezzodemon Warmongers (65*)
Microcorp Agents (100*)
Migol Ironwill (110+)
Minions of Utgar (110*)
Mohican River Tribe (70*)
Ninjas of the Northern Wind (110)
Phantom Knights (70*)
Protectors of Ullar (110*)
Quasatch Hunters (100*)
Shades of Bleakewoode (100*)
Sir Hawthorne (90+)
Tagawa Samurai Archers (65*)
Tor-Kul-Na (220+)
Warforged Soldiers (80*+)
Water Elemental (30+*)


Cheerleaders
Acolarh (110)
Ana Karithon (100)
Atlaga (90)
Eldgrim the Viking Champion (30+)
Empress Kiova (90)
Estivara (80)
Finn the Viking Champion (80+)
Hatamoto Taro (130)
Khosumet the Darklord (75+)
Kyntela Gwyn (20)
Laglor (110)
Marcus Decimus Gallus (100+)
Master Win Chiu Woo (140)
Mogrimm Forgehammer (120+)
Nakita Agents (120)
Nerak the Glacian Swog Rider (50+)
Omnicron Repulsors (40*)
Ornak (100+)
Parmenio (90+)
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-SOTM (120)
Raelin the Kyrie Warrior-ROTV (80)
Sir Gilbert (105+)
Sonya Esenwein (45)
Spartacus (200+)
Swog Rider (25*+)
Taelord the Kyrie Warrior (180+)
Thorgrim the Viking Champion (80+)
Torin (120)
Venoc Warlord (120+)
Warden 816 (90)

Sharks
Airborne Elite (110)
Alastair MacDirk (110+)
Anubian Wolves (75*)
Armoc Vipers (65*)
Ashigaru Harquebus (60*)
Ashigaru Yari (40*)
Aubrien Archers (70*)
Braxas (210)
Chardris (90)
Cyprien Esenwein (150)
Darrak Ambershard (60+)
Deathchasers of Thesk (55*)
Fyorlag Spiders (40*)
Grok Riders (130*)
Ice Troll Berserker (85+)
Iskra Esenwein (50)
Jorhdawn (100)
Jotun (225)
Kozuke Samurai (100)
MacDirk Warriors (80*)
Marro Drones (50*)
Mimring (150+)
Nilfheim (185)
Ogre Pulverizer (100+)
Omnicron Snipers (100*)
Othkurik the Black Dragon (140)
Rechets of Bogdan (50)
Retiarius (90+)
Roman Archers (55*)
Shaolin Monks (80*)
Su-Bak-Na (160)
Sujoah (185+)
Templar Cavalry (120*)
The Einar Imperium (140*)
Werewolf Lord (140+)
Wo-Sa-Ga (135+)
Wolves of Badru (80*)
Wyvern (100+)
Venoc Vipers (40*)
Zelrig (185)
Zombies of Morindan (60*)

Cleanup
Arkmer (50)
Brave Arrow (50+)
Charos (210)
Crixus (90)
Deathwalker 8000 (130)
Deathwalker 9000 (140)
Eltahale (140)
Evar Scarcarver (110)
Feral Troll (90)
Greater Ice Elemental (130)
Guilty McCreech (30)
Heirloom (90)
Isamu (10)
Kaemon Awa(120)
Major Q10 (150)
Marro Warriors (50)
Master of the Hunt (140)
Me-Burq-Sa (50+)
Mika Connour (110)
Mind Flayer Mastermind (100)
Pelloth (100)
Sahuagin Raider (25*)
Sonlen (160)
Sgt. Drake Alexander-ROTV (110)
Sgt. Drake Alexander-SOTM (170)
Sir Dupuis (150)
Syvarris (100)
Tagawa Samurai (120)
Tornak (100+)
Zetacron (60)
Zettian Guards (70)

Niche
Agent Carr (100)
Air Elemental (30*+)
Black Wyrmling (30*+)
Blue Wyrmling (30*+)
Deadeye Dan (60)
Deathstalkers (100*)
Deathwalker 7000 (100)
Drow Chainfighter (25*)
Dumutef Guard (25*)
Dünd (110)
Dzu-Teh (75*)
Emiroon (80)
Erevan Sunshadow (80)
Gorillinators (90*)
Iron Golem (100)
James Murphy (75)
Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan (65)
Kee-Mo-Shi (130)
Kelda the Kyrie Warrior (80)
Kumiko (80)
Major X17(100)
Marro Drudge (50*)
Moriko (110)
Morsbane (100)
Obsidian Guards (100*)
Otonashi (10)
Red Wyrmling (30)
Runa (120)
Saylind the Kyrie Warrior (80)
Shiori (60)
Sudema (140)
Theracus (40)
Tul-Bak-Ra (130)
White Wyrmling (30)

I like how you put this together, but I don't even use them.

Why wouldnt you, they make the game unlike any other!

when each player has 2000 points, it is just one step that makes a two day games a three day game. WE modify powers to have the same effects.

I see...

Yes. I have never actually played with them becuase I didn't like having limited options.

I agree with Scape Scrub. I think order marker management is a lot of what makes Heroscape what it is. I tried the Basic Game one time, and I nearly banged my head against the table. (Although that was probably more due to the fact that there's never a reason to take a turn with anything but Grimnak than the lack of order markers.) I've also never played larger than a 650 point army for any player. Playing a 2000-point game is what makes a game take a long time-it's not the order markers' faults.

I don't really understand the appeal of avoiding using order markers, or changing how many each player has. If you double the number of order markers that both sides have, I don't see how it shortens the length of the turns at all. Each side is still moving the same number of times. 3 and an X seems like a rather astute design choice to me.

If you have both sides move their entire armies at once, or something similar to that, it royally screws up the balance of a lot of units and their point costs. Common units, bonding units, Kato, Deathreavers, and many others would lose a lot of their utility, all in the name of simplifying an already simple game.

But then again, I'm one of those weird people who only has two master sets (1 RotV and 1 SotM now), 1TT, 1 FotA, and 1 RttFF terrain-wise and eagerly awaits new units.

Sorry if I sounded a bit snarky. Should I not have put this in the official units thread? I meant to classify the official units from a slightly different perspective and possibly help people understand a less obvious sort of synergy.

But I guess that's what I love about Heroscape after all. It's that Theats and I can both pick it up and enjoy it in our own way. You can pick and choose, and spend as much or as little as you like. I saw some kids in a Wal-mart the other day excited over the Marvel boxed set. I don't plan to buy it myself, but if it helps keep standard expansions coming out for the next 5 years, I'm all for it.

The order markers are a great system, and very important to the strategical depth of the game. This is a great article and a helpful guide for any player.

Wow, this article is absolutely awesome...my favorite strategy article I've ever read. You gotta do more of these! I liked the "I Like ORCS!!111!!!" army title too :lol:. I also liked how you classified each unit as to what role it should perform so that you can really maximize the value of each figure. Great stuff and keep it coming!

More? This took a lot out of me as is ;)

It mostly came from a discussion my friend and I had after the third time we saw his Zombies in action.

We both really want them to run across the table eating brains, but each time, they've failed miserably. Part of the problem with them as I see it is that they don't really work well with many other units at all. They are the Great White of Sharks. They do not play well with others.
Raelin v.2 might have finally found her match.

It also explains my difficulty with my Soldier/Warlord army that I was messing with. I took UPC's army listed above and added the Airborne Elite to it. The first few times I tried it, I got the Airborne Elite to drop early, which is normally a boon, but in an army built around Fire and Forget squads that I would like to move into position, I was struck by horrible order marker conundrums due to the AE's brittle and sharky nature.

Ideally, I'd like to get more 4th. Mass and Romans into the build, but there's no clean way to fit that in the points (or hexes); 4x Romans is overkill.

This is a great post. I've had a few of these thoughts when I'm designing customs. I try to think about what a unit asks of the player in terms of order markers. "Give me two in a row?" "Even if you don't give me any, I'm still a threat?" But this is so much more comprehensive and well-organized.

I would love to see more in-depth material in this direction. (Maybe you have one or two categories too many?) This is something that could really be refined into a great guide.

A good companion piece might be something about analyzing an army from the standpoint of order marker decisions. How likely am I to take a turn with a below-strength squad? How many order markers will it take me to move everyone? How many choices for placement will I have? Who wants the X in this army?

Thanks!

I felt the same about the categories as I was making them. Sentences like "These are similar to X, but are different because Y" really show that.

An early draft put all the Defenders in with the Cheerleaders because they are both useful when you don't move them, but I realized key differences in whether or not you want them to be attacked, and which units they work better with. Defenders work well with Sharks; Cheerleaders work best with Fire and Forgets or Menacers.

Cleanup units are essentially Sharks who specialize in late-game antics.

I like keeping Menacers as a distinct category, because I really feel that there is something that sets Ninjas, Minions, KMA, and Q9 apart from most other units. They aren't quite as deadly as FaFs or Sharks usually, and they are often expensive as well as tough. They're almost like every type of unit wrapped into one (except cheerleaders). They're Defenders that your opponent actually wants to attack. (It's probably worth noting that most of the Menacers are A-list units, and at the very least B's by sp's rankings. They are rather robust and easy to use.)

The Bread and Butter category could also either be removed or consolidated in a future version, because it doesn't really add anything to the discussion. I'm contemplating renaming the FaF's Bread and Butter simply because it makes more sense, and I'm not sure if my cute little 'Fire and Forget' joke was very cute or funny.

This is a good idea, and I might just have to do it!

Enjoy. Critique.

I'm not trying, once again, to defend our house's "no order marker" play. I understand I'm in the extreme minority. However, the question was asked why one would make this choice and I wanted to offer our reasons. Time and Fun.

I've mentioned in several past posts that the order markers added about 33% more time to our games, and our schedules are so hectic that it means the difference between being able to play 2 games or 3 games.

Plus, the frustrations of finding oneself unable to react to the opponents last move were pretty high. Since we play for fun we eliminated the part of the game that was detracting from that.

I recognize that a lot of strategy is lost this way, but for us that's fine. Yes, there are times when one hero is sent out, killed, then another hero is sent out with the rest of the army waiting. But we have fun.

The only time I recommend playing without them to others is when you're trying to bring a spouse or young one into the game and they're NOT having fun playing. Try playing with them again but this time release the shackles of the order marker system. The point is to play more, right?

That's quite an indepth article you've written there, and I highly respect the thought and work you've put into it. However, I'll say one more thing. In the past I've analyzed and postulated and come up with probability charts and, basically, killed the enjoyment of a game for myself by making it work instead of play. That's one major reason I don't pressure my kid into putting the markers back into play, because I don't want to have to work that hard and I don't want to overpower her strategically. Plus I can just see myself falling back into the old days of charts, calculators and memorizing a bunch of useless stats. I'm quite the obsessive/compulsive type.

I guess that's a good point. I'm sort of more of the opinion that you show the new guy all the cool tricks so he learns faster, but I also tend to play with 20-somethings who have played a lot of games in the past.

I stand by my liking of order markers. I'm starting to see how some can politely disagree though.

That's a really great article! I, too, have had problems with "great" armies that suffered from order placement paradoxes. The AE are a classic example of this, as you mentioned. Thanks!

I, also have thrown out the Order Marker system. My group plays each round giving each of their units a turn to move, and no unit may move more than once per round unless by use of another unit (like placing an X order marker on each of your units, X meaning you activate that unit at any time).This adds to the reactivity of game play and makes for some more intense battles especially when 1 player has more units/heroes than another. We (my group) also find that giving each of your units a turn each round is more realistic than sending in 1 or 2 units in til they are gone, then sending another in. Maybe i havent given order markers enough of a chance, but i really havent seen any strategic deterioration as a result of their abandonment.

My2cents

When you do this, do you:
A. Go back and forth taking turns with army cards, or
B. Does one player move his whole army, and then it's the other guy's turn?

we take turns "activating" our cards, if you run out before your opponent then he still gets to activate the rest of his while you wait til next round.
The building of an army ie unique to common , hero to squad ratios become very important and well balanced armies usually win the day.

This article is great! :up: :up: On the subject of order markers, I have found that in very large games (1000+pts), multiple sets of order markers work well at getting more figures mobilized, anything smaller and one set works great. Just my :2cents:

Thats brocken. I'd just draft tons of orcs and such and could get nearlt twice as many turns as you.

Yes, tons of orcs "out turning" someone might work, but isnt that exactly how a "swarm" army is supposed to work? Its all about the Drafting, if you see your opponent drafting a "swarm" army, then you do likewise or try to counterdraft it in someway given your starting positions and terrain features of the map.

It takes a while to get the hang of it, but if you play with a regular group, you get to know the other players styles, preferences, strengths and weaknesses fairly quickly so the "meta game" becomes important also.
Its fun to wipe out an oppenents army, but if you can mess with his head at the same time, well, that the cakes icing. :twisted:

Swarming does not involve getting extra turns. It involves overwhlming forces with huge numbers.

As I mentioned somewhere, I have yet to play a game above the 650-700 point level, but if I did, I figure I'd do one of the following things:

1. Just stack two 500 point armies on top of each other, like taking the Orcish Horde! and combining it with Truth's Arrow Grut army. You could also cross things that you might not normally, like mixing Gladiatrons and Blastatrons with Sacred Band, or adding Mittens and Venoc Vipers to a Roman army.

2. I'd take a standard 500 point army and double things, adding maybe an extra hero or two here and there.

3. I'd try out expensive squads, heroes and Cheerleaders that I don't normally use, like The Einar Imperium, Taelord, Ornak and Omnicron Snipers... or hell, even allow Marvel units.

In none of these situations do I see the standard order markers causing me that much of a problem.

Some hastily thrown together 1000 point armies:

Robots in Disguise!
Marcus Decimus Gallus 100
Parmenio 190
4x Sacred Band 390
Airborne Elite 500
Krav Maga Agents 600
Kaemon Awa 720
2x Gladiatrons 880
2x Blastatrons 1000

Either you use the Blastatrons or the Sacred Band... Until the AE drop, then you use them until they die and continue with your main units. Use Kaemon Awa last.

Crazy Gruts
5x Arrow Gruts 200
4x Swog Rider 300
Mimring 450
Krug 570
Raelin 650
Taelord 830
Sonlen 990
Isamu 1000

Move Tae and Raelin up early onto height and largely forget about them. They're there to buff your Arrow Gruts and whatever else might pass by. When you lose Mimring and Krug, move Sonlen in to clean up whatever is left.

Holy Roman Empire, Batman!
Marcus Decimus Gallus 100
4x Roman Legionnaires 300
Ne-Gok-Sa 390
Me-Burq-Sa 440
Valguard 550
Empress Kiova 640
2x Einar Imperium 920
Raelin 1000

Once you move Raelin and Kiova approximately where you want them, you've got all of two places to put your order markers. Between Marcus, Kiova, and Raelin, you might actually have some respectable Imperium out there. A couple tough-as-nails tank heroes might also give them a chance to engage something.

Taelord's Beatdown
Taelord 180
2x Minions 400
4x Snipers 800
Raelin 880
3x Deathreavers 1000

Pretty self-explanatory.

Kato Katsuro, Daimyo at Large
Kato Katsuro 200
Tagawa Samurai 320
Hatamoto Taro 450
Izumi Samurai 510
Kozuke Samurai 610
Kaemon Awa 730
3x Ashigaru Harquebus 910
2x Ashigaru Yari 990

Swarm of the Marro
Marro Hive 160
Su-Bak-Na 320
4x Marrden Nagrubs 440
4x Marro Drones 640
6x Marro Stingers 1000

Yes, and in order to get those huge numbers into position to overwhelm requires the extra turns.
I view the "round" as a parcel of time..all your units are doing something in that time so they should all get a turn (even if their turn consists of not moving at all).
Our system allows each player to be offensive and defensive depending on how the battle is playing out at that instant.
Next time you play, give it a try. If you dont like it.. fine, its just a different way to play with its own pros and cons. :D

I've said it before, and I will say it again, the quickest way to move from a good Heroscape player to a great Heroscape player is Order Marker management. If you get a chance to watch some of the stronger players in Heroscape, you will notice that they very rarely have any wasted turn markers. Knowing the "when and where" of OM placement will absolutely improve your game.

This article is a great help in understanding the roles that certain units play in an army and translates very well into how it applies to Order Marker usage.

Great article, Jexik!

Couldn't agree more with UPC on all points. The strategy elements of this game are (in order of importance): Army Selection, Order Marker Placement, and finally Unit Placement. A fantastic article! Front page that bad boy!



I've had a lot of success with:

Braxas
Charos
2 x Deathreavers

Which I think demonstrates the points you make in your article. Braxas is the heart and soul of this one, but as a shark she justifies her markers. Charos and the rats are less intensive which allows you to use Braxas to maximum effect. I always play this army aggressively, leading with the rats until they're forward and widespread, then pulling up Braxas and laying waste. Aggressiveness is highly rewarded in Heroscape. Charos is a spectacular, mobile meat shield and never fails as a cleanup.

Still, it's not my best army. But I'm keeping that a secret (sort of) until after October 20th. :)

I agree 1000%. Killing someones turns is a HUGE benefit and sometimes a great exploit.


For those who don't play with markers. You really can't rate what kind of a HS player you are. Because an army that seems unstoppable without markers, wouldn't even make it in second to last place in a real system. I suggest to anyone not using markers, to start.
For one, it helps end those annoying games where your left chasing a single figure around because you can't catch him. The time you win initiative...you do catch him.

I really love peanut butter sandwiches. I could eat them every day. Adding jelly is very popular.

I like pork chops too, but they taste funny on a peanut butter sandwich. I prefer adding mint jelly. A salad can also aid in the digestion of pork.

Bacon is awesome.

And who doesn't love a little chocolate after dinner?

I won't argue with you. I'll just say that we're looking for different things out of the game.

Maybe a good visual representation of the unit types would be a Cartesian graph with one axis representing what the unit returns in exchange for an order marker and the other representing what they do on the opponent's turn.

Also, a good rule of thumb would be that almost any unit that uses special markers has at least some Shark DNA, because the enemy wants to kill it before it delivers its payload. Iskra with unsummoned rechets, Morsbane with a full magazine of negation markers, and Tagawa Samurai all might deserve mention in the Shark list.

Wow, that would be pretty cool. (I'm picturing a scatterplot with offensive ability/order marker potency on the X axis, and passive abilities on the Y. Menacers would likely form a line right along 45 degree angle. Sharks would be way on the right. Defenders and Cheerleaders would hug the Y axis closely.) [Or even wackier still, do a 3 dimensional graph. X= Order Marker effectiveness, Y= Durability, and Z= Synergies offered. That would really help show why I split up the groups as I did.]

Good point. Tagawa have enough defensive ability for me to have tossed them in with the Menacers, (and I'm pretty sure that's what I did). They definitely have a bit of shark in them too, that's for sure. I don't know if I did anything with Iskra yet, and I think I put Morsbane in as a Niche unit. He's cool, but pretty risky. Let's see what Ulginesh does for his Elven brothers come Wave 8.

Moving every figure on every turn is way too overpowering and takes so much away from heroscape. Basically, once you start killing off a small portion of your enemies army, they can't fight as effectively and they will start to lose. This way there is no chance for a come back of any kind. Great squad killers like Cyprien or Q9 would just get overwhelmed.

If you don't use order markers you are just not as good at strategy as those who do. You could almost say you are either not as smart or lazy. :wink:

How about a combination of that graph with a little help from the Heroscape Visual Synergy Charts? Rank the units' X and Y effectiveness assuming that they're participating in their hard-wired synergies, and use color-coding or dotted lines to show that some of them won't perform as rated unless they fight together. So you won't need an arrow pointing from Raelin to all units, or Concan to all Knights, but the true synergies, like Blasts/Glads and Knights/Gilbert, would be indicated. Maybe also use the size and shape of the dots to indicate unique/common and ranged/melee....

That's probably a simpler way to go about it than trying a 3 dimensional graph. The hope of separation comes when you realize that for the most part, cheerleaders and bread and butter units have more synergy, and therefore work together. Sharks, menacers, and cleanup units almost uniformly have none. Defenders have some, depending on how you define synergy, but their greatest trait is their high durability.

For the heck of it, I started making a spreadsheet (I'm terrible with spreadsheets) and started assigning numbers from thin air with the three variables. What I quickly found out was that the only thing really separating the ranged bread and butter units (4th mass, stingers, Aubrien archers, etc.) from sharks was their common status.

Yeah, common-ness should be worth a pretty big jump on the order marker value axis, if not both.

Hmm... That makes me think.

I had previously been thinking about order marker effectiveness solely from an offensive standpoint. I had given both the Airborne Elite and the 4th Massachusetts line a '10' since they are some of the most potent attackers in the game. Since the 4th Mass are common, and likely have more defense however, the 4th Massachusetts have much more durability.

If I take my Offensive category, and subtract the defensive one, I could end up with some sort of 'Order marker priority, or 'order marker security' score, which would put Bread and Butter units at highest priority, Sharks next, Menacer and Cleanup units near 0, and Cheerleader and Defender units would be negative.

Then if the other variable is overall synergies offered, you could still definitely see the difference between units pretty well.

That would only make for 2 variables, which is much easier to graph.

It'd look a lot like the logo for NBC... but a bit flatter I guess.

You could think of the one axis as "What will I get for a marker on this card after it's taken some fire?" By that reckoning, the Krav and 4th Mass, for instance, would indeed rank higher than the Airborne.

On the other axis, though... would you be counting up the synergy benefits received or only the benefits offered? Would someone like Ne-Gok-Sa, who receives boosts from SBN and Romans, get a bump? And what about double attackers and Deadly Shots who can double-dip on certain boosts?

Yep.

I think I'd focus on Synergy Bonuses offered. Squads that bond would have lower offensive potential than something like the Airborne Elite, but the fact that they can bond would increase their synergy score. Ne-Gok-Sa's most noteworthy trait would be his durability, but he might get a slight score boost in synergy based on the off-chance that Mindshackle could actually work. Raelin would have the highest synergy score of any figure, because she's just that versatile. Einar Imperium and Omnicron Snipers wouldn't get much of a synergy score, but Empress Kiova and Taelord would.

One thing I keep thinking about is how to incorporate cost when looking at offensive and defensive ability. Charos and Q9 are both much tougher than Deathreavers, but they also cost far more.

One idea I have is to use a simple formula:

(Number of figures or lives per card)*(10)*(Defense score)/(Point cost)+C= Durability (where C is a constant added for Common status of the card)

A similar formula could also be made for Offense.

Edit: Out of curiosity, I tested the formula out, with a value of 0 for C. (This gives no bias to common units.) Deathreavers have a value of 4.0, Q9 a value of 1.56, and Charos a value of 2.14. The AE have a value of .73. It might also be worthwhile to add in constants for certain special abilities, such as counterstrike, stealth dodge, and ninja disappear.

Here is something I did to make games move faster and to allow EVERY unit to be used.


http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ad.php?t=11140

I read it, and it would definitely make for some cool battle reports. I remember how often my friends and I would talk about our 6v6 Capture the Flag matches on Blood Gulch in Halo afterwards. It was a good time.

I'm also looking forward to Starcraft 2.

I didn't really intend for this thread to be a "Should we use Order Markers?" discussion. More of a... "How to use Order Markers."

Also, the more I use math, the more I start to sound like UPC's concept of IGPV. I really don't want to take credit for anyone else's work. This started as a simple gut reaction I noticed after trying to use Zombies alongside any other units.

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking about the same thing only using different words, like when Karl Marx went through Wealth of Nations and replaced all notions of price with use-value and everyone thought he was a freaking genius.

I wasn't meaning to hijack your thread. I was just trying to get your opinion. But, I will try using order markers with the marvel scape.

I'm sorry. I'm probably coming off a bit harsh. I guess I've been surprised ever since the start when I first heard that you and others often forgo the use of order markers. Very rarely do I play large games, so it's probably a bit presumptuous of me to tell people how they should have fun.

As for Marvel Scape: if you play with just them, my friend and I both decided that with the exception of Red Skull and Captain America, they're almost universally offensive figures with ridiculous durability.

I was just thinking I might redirect the discussion back towards how I can improve my discussion of order marker usage, instead of whether I should be using them at all.

Again, I apologize.

No need, at least for me. I should apologize for bringing this up again. I've defended the no order marker thing we use in our house a few times and I know that all it really does is lower myself in the eyes of others. As the "arguments" sprouted up and the attacks on my intellect occurred I dug in deeper and defended myself even harder.

The truth of the matter is that I play with only one person, my kid, who asked that we not use them after we tried a few times and I agreed. I still say that the games go faster without them and it's nice to not lose turns. However, I would never approach another player and ask to not use them in a game, and Lord bless me with that chance someday.

With that I'll take my leave of this thread and see what's going on over here.

Its kind of funny because I was playing with a friend a couple of nights ago on the Bridge of Volcarren map and he had drafted Raelin, and constantly placed an order marker on her just to decide not to move or attack, wasting valuable order markers! Definitely going to print out this one for him

I added some new links to the end for additional information, and to give credit to the hard work of others.

Also, I removed the version history to clean up the original post, and will keep it here for any who are interested:


[Edit: Just added a suggested uses section to each group to build up to the conclusion. Any tips, suggestions, comments, possible order (no pun intended) changes to the layout of the post, etc are appreciated.]
[Edit2: Started adding colors... is it too much? Man, that violet should warn you that it's pink in disguise.]
[Edit3-20. Random playing with colors and thanking whichever mod moved this to its correct location.]
[Even more edits to add in more bonded entries and fix random color annoyances. Should I tone down the Germanic Kapitalization now that I am using Kolors?]
[v. 1.35: I renamed some of the classifications to make more sense, but the spirit remains the same. I also fixed a few glaring mistakes, like the omission of Sentinels of Jandar as defenders.]
[v. 1.40 Added a funny quote. Also added Iskra Esenwein as per rdhight's suggestion.]
[v. 1.42 Changed general mentions of Krug to Menacer, but kept the other two conditional ones when describing the different categories of units.]
[v1.47? (9-26) Added links to other threads discussing similar topics, something I should have done long ago.]

This too is very interesting. Thumbsups :thumbsup: . I think it can be useful when building armies, knowing if your going to pick all guys that shouldn't have many order markeres on them and well, hard to explain.

Whenever the order markers/no order markers discussion comes up, I think of the Monty Python skit where a game of tennis is described as "playing doubles," but they have two players on one side and three on the other. The response is to say that you can do that if you want, "But, don't go calling it 'doubles'."

I won't say, if you don't use order markers, "Don't go calling it 'HeroScape.'" I won't say it, but I'll think it.

Re: What's in an Order Marker?™
 

Nice write-up. I thought the "Shark" designation was particularly clever.

I'm curious why you marked the Sacred Band and Armoc Vipers as "2nd-Stringers." While they certainly don't have as many bonding options as the Roman Legionnaires, if you are willing to accept their heroes, they do just as well in battle.