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-   -   Decision 2016 (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=53250)

Raider30 December 15th, 2016 07:35 PM

Re: The Power of Narrative
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2126056)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2126038)
Having spent some time myself on both sides of that aisle, I actually kind of get where both sides come from when they can "look down" on the other. But it's not something endemic to one side. It's a part of the human condition to tribalize.

You can "tribalize" - be with those of your own tribe - without judging the other. Everybody can.

Um...if we don't judge how can anyone know that our tribe is better than their tribe?

- Raider30

Hahma December 15th, 2016 09:09 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2126070)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2126062)
Easier said then done DS.
Those that can are truly the good ones.
Human nature is extremely hard to overcome.
And it is my firm belief that most do not wish to change.
Some gain perspective over time, some get worse.

Those that are enlightened from an early age are blessed.

My goal is not to change the minds of most people. My goal is to treat people well, because treating people well is the right thing to do. For its own sake.

It's easier said than done. In my official capacity I talked to a guy wanted for murder this morning. He didn't have a lawyer, and had lots of questions and was kind of angry. I just tried treating him respectfully and we spoke for about 25 minutes. By the time we were done he appreciated that I'd been patient and respectful with him.

If I hadn't been patient and respectful, we could have been done in 15 or 10 minutes, but I am trying to do better, and that's the path I'm trying to take. It was a solid investment of those 10 or 15 minutes, I think. He's still going to trial, will still (I imagine) go to jail for what he did. How am I helping my day, or his, be any better, with needless direspect? No thank you.

Again, this is all kind of aspirational, from my perspective. During this election season, I came to think that what's missing is mutual respect, and if I expect respect from others, I must demonstrate it as well. I won't abandon reason or principles, but I don't have to do those things, to be respectful.

I agree with this DS. People aren't going to change their minds for the most part, and I don't think myself so righteous as to believe I should be changing anyone's mind. I engage in discussions such as with this thread and others on FB, to only give my perspective, which may not be right, as well as gain perspective from other people. I don't want to be in an echo chamber where I agree with everyone or that everyone agrees with me. While my mind isn't generally changed too often, it can certainly be on occasion, or if nothing else, I gain an appreciation for other people's views and a better understanding of where they are coming from.

I work at a decent sized hospital as a painter. There are two of us full time for quite a large place, as well as a carpenter, plumber, HVAC guy and electrician. We are the trades part of facilities, and there are the "engineers/maintenance" guys that tend the boiler, do maintenance throughout. The trades guys are all great and professional. A good bit of the "engineers/maintenance" guys are crap lazy and have issue with taking direction from our manager. I have always had little respect for some of these guys because of their work ethic and other things, but I've always treated them with respect.

My boss, our manager of the past 5 years has been the best boss us trades guys have ever had there, or anywhere for that matter. He came from a construction background, as well as facilities background in other hospitals. Since he's been there, he has done two jobs but has been paid for one. He was manager of facilities as well as getting stuck with being project manager for the many construction projects. The dude was working his butt off, saving the hospital money and totally dedicated to making the hospital better. He's been so busy, I've seen him talking on two different phones to two different people about different things, and still try to listen to what you needed. But sadly he is leaving at the end of the year. He hasn't gotten a raise in a while and has been crapped on by his director and more so by the VP at the top of his chain of command. That guy is a real dick. Add to that, he's been crapped on by some of the "engineers/maintenance" guys, who have called him a racist, dragged him through the ringer with their union and HR investigations, only to find nothing being true of what they accused him of. He's in his late 50's and said "screw it". He put up with this for the last few years and tried and tried to make it work, but enough was enough and he has a better place to go to for him for his last few years of working.

So now, even though I had little respect for the VP, Director and those "engineer/maintenance" guys before, now I detest them and find it extremely difficult to see them in passing. Despite my loathing of them, I remain respectful and civil to them, but it's hard. Of course, I have now choice with the Director and VP, as I'd be fired if I told them what I really thought. The sad thing is that those clowns will be gone within 6 months anyway. Good riddance, but much too late.

I do enjoy showing respect for most of the other workers at the hospital, close to 1,500 of them. Some are scum, but most are good people from all walks of life. I also really enjoy interacting with patients and visitors/family members and show them the utmost respect. I've grown to appreciate the importance of health for not only myself, but my family and friends.

To me, unless someone has done something against me or people I care about, I feel good inside about treating people well. I had been a jerk at times in the past, for various reasons, but I have grown more mellow and appreciative of people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2126079)
:word:

I try to always treat people with respect until they prove themselves unworthy.

I try to treat others as equals, this generally applies mostly to young ones, again until they prove unworthy.

I really think this goes a long ways with young ones. I know I would have appreciated such actions when I was a youth.

Anyway great mantra/philosophy DS. :)

A goal of not changing people minds has to be one of the smartest ideas ever.


Good stuff Tornado! I enjoy interacting with young people (late teens/20's) with my game group. I know that's not "young" but I'm 49, with a 24 year-old daughter that's getting married next September, so that's young to me. :) But I also get a kick out of my 13 year-old daughters and their buddies. I haven't had a run in with a kid that was sketchy that needed someone to help straighten them out, not yet anyway. While I wasn't a totally sketchy kid, my sister and I were raised by our mom from a very young age and we had that "single mom/no dad" stigma and lived in some crappy places. I've had a neighbor's dad buy me some toy soldiers and take me snowmobiling in a vacant lot across from our apartments. I've had friends' parents take me on vacation with them. So I totally appreciate what treating a young person with respect and compassion can mean for them.


Like DS said, what really saddened me about this past election, is how ugly and disrespectful it was. I mean, there has been some extra ugly going on since Obama came into office, but this election raised it to another level. I understand that there's going to be some contention and politics, but this made me sick. Social media has helped spread the ugly, as people can take on a different personality online and can look to be really bad, for whichever side they are on. I think that most of those people would be normal people that we could hang out with, but become something else online.

Oh well. Sorry for the long-winded post. If I post something that comes off as disrespectful, please let me know. It's not intentional and I'm not the most eloquent speaker/writer. Just a dumb old painter :)

Tornado December 15th, 2016 09:45 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
You are talking about new posts right?
Because I can go back through the C3G and pull up posts from you until the cows come home. :)

Just some gentle ribbing there Hahmbone. :)

Seriously though I tried to follow in your footsteps but I just do not have enough prickly in me. Well not until I get super defensive over something stupid(I simply cannot shake that negative part of personality, though I should know better to post it). :)

Good read Hahma. I enjoyed every bit of that post. My friend is an RN and his wife a doctor so I get a lot of hospital perspective from the service end. Cool to hear from someone who keeps the place functioning.

You ever do any artistic painting?

Hahma December 15th, 2016 10:14 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
This is as artistic as I get Tornado :)

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...psfjc72zbc.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ps99bgjnxr.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...psbp1aep0h.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...pscl5eosda.jpg

At work, it's mostly repainting all over the place, doing remodeling jobs, lots of patching of damaged walls, working with the other trades on various projects.

Lots of great nurses there for sure. I give them a ton of credit, they work their butts off and get crap from patients, family, nurse management and doctors. They certainly are a special breed.

Oh now old C3G posts are off limits, I was under duress at that time ;) Too many late nights and early morning working on that project, made me prickly at times :)

Yeah, it can be tough shaking certain personality traits. I used to be a perfectionist, and all that accomplished was to make me stress and be a jerk at times. I've mellowed in the last several years to where I realize I don't have to be perfect. Man, it's made me so much happier and a much better person to be around. Even though I knew I was kind of acting a certain way, I couldn't stop it. But now it's like night and day. I had some guilt and maybe depression going on that I just couldn't kick. It's like watching yourself from the outside and helpless to do anything. The a switch went off after starting at the hospital and since I realized my oldest daughter from my first marriage was "ok" and didn't feel about me like I did about my dad. She and I are super close, so I know I I wasn't like my dad.

Too heavy, I know. But that's likely where some of that prickly came from.

Okay, sorry to derail the fun political talk :)

Tornado December 15th, 2016 10:58 PM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Decision 2016 is over anyway, I like this direction better.

My dad said something one day to the affect "I need to look at things like Jason(that is me). Nothing bothers him." Not entirely true but it was a huge compliment to me.

Years later I was staying over at their house for a weekend and needed to borrow some socks. In the drawer I discovered a note my dad had written to himself that said something like "People are not going to change, so do not try to do so."

Woah. Profound.

I think he has been happier ever since. I certainly noticed the change. :)

Love those minis! Nice work.

Hahma December 16th, 2016 12:15 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2126168)
Decision 2016 is over anyway, I like this direction better.

My dad said something one day to the affect "I need to look at things like Jason(that is me). Nothing bothers him." Not entirely true but it was a huge compliment to me.

Years later I was staying over at their house for a weekend and needed to borrow some socks. In the drawer I discovered a note my dad had written to himself that said something like "People are not going to change, so do not try to do so."

Woah. Profound.

I think he has been happier ever since. I certainly noticed the change. :)

Love those minis! Nice work.


Cool for sure. And thanks!

Hahma December 16th, 2016 07:57 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Well at least now he is admitting he was full of crap during the campaign. Sure this is from The Daily Show, but the video outtakes are from the man himself.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/i9tog6...inkId=32425738

Tornado December 16th, 2016 08:09 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Thanks for that link Hahma.
"He's a magic man."

Raider30 December 16th, 2016 08:55 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hahma (Post 2126191)
Well at least now he is admitting he was full of crap during the campaign. Sure this is from The Daily Show, but the video outtakes are from the man himself.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/i9tog6...inkId=32425738

I'm not a big Noah fan, I just don't think he's as sharp as Stewart was, but aside from that I'm not entirely sure what the big deal is here. In the case of this video certain parts, especially his first example with Paul Ryan, just glaringly illustrate how the media take Trump so literally and make an issue of something when clearly it was meant as a joke. Stuff like that is what lead people to believe the media is biased, when a reasonable person can look at that and go, "yeah the dude was just busting on a guy". I know, I know, Noah is making a joke out of it, but clearly people will point to stuff like that and say "at least now he is admitting he was full of crap.".

ALL politicians say stuff they don't mean during the campaign and if people don't recognize that then I'm not really sure what to say except maybe that I'm sorry they are waking up to the real world(?). If any of you think Trump was the first to use a catch phrase or label an opponent or say he was going to do something because it played well and then walk it back - where have you been living? Lock her up is a perfect example. That line got soooo much response and free media coverage, of course he was going to keep using it. If people thought he really meant he was going to waste time with her after the election, well I'm not sure what to say except that's not how this works.

Trump will become president and realize that he can't just order a wall built the length of our border, just like Obama became president and realized he couldn't just up and order Guantanamo Bay closed. And the media will rip him to shreds screaming about how he lied. Does anyone think different?

- Raider30

Ps: I did laugh when Noah was talking about the 'lock her up' catch phrase and started something like "that was his one clear policy position". Heh.

Hahma December 16th, 2016 09:26 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Oh I understand that they all make promises for sure, so this isn't a "big deal" at all really. I just found it funny because of the chanting and fervor that came about from those promises, as if some people actually believed he'd follow up with them.

Besides the chants at rallies and merchandise, the sentiment was used quite often in social media discussions.

Basically, I equate his promises to be like a candidate promising that 4 year college tuition would become free for high school graduates. With people chanting "free college for me. Free college for me" Some people may have actually believed that nonsense and voted based on that.

Generally, promises seem to be a little bit more generalized, and perhaps a portion of them get implemented.

Tornado December 16th, 2016 10:21 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
Quote:

ALL politicians say stuff they don't mean during the campaign and if people don't recognize that then I'm not really sure what to say except maybe that I'm sorry they are waking up to the real world(?).
This exactly. You could see people 'waking up' when they start chanting and Trump cuts them off. "Like, what, we are not doing this? But I voted for you."

Ixe December 16th, 2016 11:32 AM

Re: Decision 2016
 
One of the biggest issues with "tribalization" is how people separate and don't even talk to the opposing side. Their tribe turns into an echo chamber where they make up straw man opponents and attribute things that aren't even true to the other side. Of course it's easy to judge and hate your imagined, irrational worst enemy. It takes a lot to realize that this image isn't real, especially since the other camp has made its own false image of you that they are acting on.

I do actually believe it's possible to change people's minds on issues (and temper your own views in the process), but it works on time scales much longer than a conversation.


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