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-   -   SOV/C3V Feedback Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=56161)

Astroking112 September 24th, 2019 09:10 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316006)
In regards to term limits and available staff, I can certainly sympathize with the challenge that can come with finding quality, volunteers. Especially in a game as old as Heroscape with a community as small as it is. Truly, I recognize that my suggestion for term limits is tied to growing the community. If the community grows, then more volunteers will be available.

I will add however, that there are still things that each project can do to turn things around and get more people engaged. Today if someone was interested in joining a team, how would they go about doing that? Is there an email list to email, phone number to call, or a point of contact to submit a resume to? Or is it currently setup so that "we'll call you, don't call us."

The danger with not having a clear path to involvement is that the perception and optics from the outside is that only those who are in the "in" crowd will get asked to join. In my opinion, this is why I believe others have mentioned projects being cliquish. Indeed, it is easy to see that perception taking hold if positions rarely open up and when they do they are filled before someone can announce their interest. While it may be an unfair and untrue position, combating bad optics is a challenge for all projects that involve the community.

I also believe that the community is bigger than we all believe. I've been analyzing some of the metrics for the recent vc releases and so far we hover around 200 downloads for each card. That is impressive since when you go to the books many of the newer ones are empty. We have quite a large silent majority.

So I believe the community is there, just not engaged. How do we engage them? One way is by providing a clear pathway to join their favorite project. @IAmBatman you guys do a great job of doing that over at the C3G. I think each project should strive to do the same. Term limits was just one possible pathway.

The problem is that getting involved in C3V/SoV is very time intensive. I agree with you that there are a lot of lurkers on these forums (I know several of them in my own area), but we need people who will dedicate hours upon hours to this project. Looking at the public playtesting forum, there hasn't been a significant sign of that level of interest from the general populace, truth be told. As it stands, I fear that term limits would do more harm than good by forcing out many of the people who have dedicated the most to these projects. If they're feeling burned out, then they can step down (and people have in the past).

I do agree with you that C3V can seem enigmatic and unapproachable at first--I know that when I first came back to the site a year or two ago, I had absolutely no idea where to begin with the project or how to get involved. Luckily, they have been taking some steps to improve this since I got back, such as the move to public playtesting and the return of the Public Access Member program. These are both ways for people to help out and get involved, although with the PAM not running frequently and the lack of clear incentives for playtesting, I think that each could be expanded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316019)
Yes, but there's no reward for doing it. You don't get points or anything like that (public members/designs aren't a thing), you don't even get a sneak peak as all the designs are posted publicly (and that wasn't enough when you did get it)... really, it honestly feels almost condescending, even if it doesn't mean to be. 'Here are our designs - little people, please test them for us? No, you can't comment on them unless you've tested them - not even a suggestion. No, you don't get anything for it - the knowledge of a job well done should be enough. Recognition from us is in no way guaranteed.' It feels actively hostile to public engagement except in a very limited, almost serfish way. It's all take and no give.
I mentioned this before years ago, here, but, as you can see, it received no response. Not one. That might be my biggest issue with VC. Any constructive criticism from has been met with, at most, what seems to amount to a pat on the head and a 'Don't worry - it's all under control, back where you can't see it'. That's where my frustration comes from - whatever people say, it's opaque and cliquey.

I may not be the best person to talk about this since I haven't had the time for public playtesting anymore since helping to start AotV and joining SoV, but I've always felt like my input was well-received. After running several tests with the Morgan's Riflemen, the team working on it asked me several questions about my thoughts for the unit and asked how I felt about some of the changes they were considering. Personally, that (and the fact that I already knew I used VC designs all the time and felt obligated to help out at least a bit) was far more rewarding for me than a points system. I disagree that it's all take and no give, but I understand why it feels that way. I'll leave the discussion of implementing more rewards (and what kind) to C3V members, because I honestly don't know what would be a reasonable yet appealing reward for theoretical playtesting points.

If recognition is a significant appeal to playtesting, though, then perhaps we could keep a list of the playtesters that contributed to a unit in a spoiler section of the book? It's just a quick spitballed idea, but something like that might help people see that their effort is greatly appreciated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316027)
I've also noticed that, while those in VC keep saying they want to see more people designing not necessarily with VC in mind, as far as I can tell, that's basically lipservice - I barely ever see a VC member comment in a customs thread unless the design is being workshopped as SoV material. When TheAverageFan was designing, I was often the only person commenting. (Scytale and, to a lesser degree, wriggz are seemingly special cases who avoided this.) You can say what you want, but when you only seem to value designs heading for SoV and all the other threads are left feeling dead, it does give the impression that SoV is what people ought to be striding for, at least when it comes to peer recognition. It's a culture that I think is quite harmful to the community at large. That's why I think a Public Design system like C3G would be a good idea - then, people can do their workshopped from the ground up for VC designs, with a lesser chance of frustration because it will be worked on collectively rather than trying to decide which of multiple directions to be pulled in (the number of times I've seen initially fun and exciting designs collapse under the weight of trying to appeal to multiple Judges' conflicting ideas is honestly sad) and SoV can be left for the nomination of personal customs which people thing deserve the nod, rather than ones created from the ground up for it, which will then result in a lower workload for Judges and a faster turnaround.

I used to try and make a point of responding and giving feedback to every customs post on the forums. Realistically, that's not something that I can do anymore. I've gotten involved in several projects, school picked back up, and I simply cannot devote all of my time to HeroScape. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd imagine that many are in the same boat--working on these projects takes a lot of time, which naturally means that we don't have as much to spend elsewhere. I still try to comment on personal customs when one pops up at the right time or when I'm feeling particularly inspired, but I don't think that it falls solely on VC's shoulders to make all other threads feel lively (as you've mentioned, some of our own barely get any comments at this point).

We've tried to kickstart public design efforts in the past. The last one has pretty much lost all interest, but if you're interested in starting another one, then I'd say go for it. We'd need a different way of ensuring that the end result fits into VC's style if it isn't intended to be submitted to SoV like the Bootcamp of Valhalla was, though. I think that it's an idea worth exploring, although it'd obviously need more concrete details and structure to back it up.

IAmBatman September 24th, 2019 09:17 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
I personally feel no responsibility or inclination to provide feedback on personal custom threads. I'm here for collaboration and enjoy group projects that are give and take. I have no real incentive to get involved in personal custom threads of other people and no real interest in what they're doing. To me, personal custom threads, where it's about a singular designer rather than collaboration, are much more of an all take, no give situation. :2cents:

That said, I realize at their best that personal custom threads do inspire collaboration and that's when customs and the process of customizing reaches its full potential. But why try to reenact that in a space that's not naturally inclined towards it when it's so easy to just do collaborative design in a project where that's the established approach?

As a designer, I also never want to do a solo act again. I've been to the Promised Land and I'm not going back.

Dad_Scaper September 24th, 2019 09:27 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
I love looking at people's personal customs threads. I don't go rummaging through them, though. If people ask me to look, I look.

Herding these cats takes pretty much all of my 'Scapers time, but I'll make time for others. Especially for quality designers like you, LO. I just don't go through that subforum to see what people are up to.

That's something the customs contests were good for. Things like the holiday contests would draw my attention.

flameslayer93 September 24th, 2019 09:57 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
It’s quiet in those parts. Not really a bad thing, it just makes the extra effort in going through someone’s designs much more important both on the commenter and the designer’s side. I don’t feel it’s really VC’s job to go boost people’s threads, or anyone else’s.

That being said, I do disagree with Bats that singular designers are all take no give. Solo or duo groups like Typhon and Sir Artorius(maybe? It’s been a long time since they were in here) and Super Bogue put out many good customs in their time. So good that when I played at one guy’s house (with his own custom rules for ‘Scape) he used a lot of their customs. Good designs should still be shared. Bad designs (like A LOT of my old stuff and maybe a lot of my new stuff :lol:) should be shared with the hopes of it improving over time.

IAmBatman September 24th, 2019 10:00 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Compared to a collaborative project, solo custom endeavors are much more take than give. I agree that any customs work, including much more selfish solo customs work, has something to give the community, and I'm glad it's here. :-D

But if we're going to compare, solo customs projects are a much bigger culprit on the take versus give spectrum.

flameslayer93 September 24th, 2019 10:25 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
I really wasn’t trying to compare group projects vs solo projects. I’m just defending the validity of solo designers, and point out that they aren’t bad guys who simply want oooh’s and ahhh’s or whatever. Hell, I only put competitive maps on my maps thread because I figure there’s a “market” for competitive maps with higher build requirements. Otherwise, they’d sit on my computer forever.

Sure some/a lot of designers weren’t that great, especially in wild west of customs days, but it is what it is.

SuperSamyon September 24th, 2019 11:36 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
I just had a great idea for a custom project: Members of Heroscapers! That way everyone can battle it out on the game board. Fun thought, what would your personal card say??

Joking aside, in the interest of my original intention for this thread which has been somewhat lost in all the chaos of the day, let's try to accomplish something with all this discussion.


For those that want change, please list a couple of the things that are easily fixable along with some things that are more of a long term goal. What would make you happy? What would make you more involved in these projects? I love the idea of incentives btw. Sometimes small gestures can go a long way in making someone feel valued.

Folks that are in the custom projects, I've already seen commitments from some members to adjust some things based on feedback you agree with. If there is anything you are taking away from this discussion, please feel free to share your thoughts.

Finally, all the many lurkers of this board, if you haven't done so, please make an account and make your voice heard. After all, it is the silent majority that keeps these custom projects in business.

I'm old and tired and going to bed for the night. Great discussion today!

flameslayer93 September 25th, 2019 12:05 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
A really cool idea was to mention the playtesters in the books. It’d be a neat way to see who all got to contribute to testing in all these years of the C3V. Where the data is available of course.

superfrog September 25th, 2019 12:07 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
I’m happy to find all that data (or at least everything I can find), and put it in the Books.

While we try to keep C3V stuff anonymous, I think that public contributions could definitely be recognized in that way.

OEAO September 25th, 2019 01:32 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
I know I’m not involved with VC at all, but when I purchase the new X-Wing wave, inside each ship pack is the list of all the people involved with that ship, from designers to play testers. I think it’s really good form to publicly acknowledge the work people put in, even if it’s just in that small of a way.

capsocrates September 25th, 2019 01:54 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316027)
I've also noticed that, while those in VC keep saying they want to see more people designing not necessarily with VC in mind, as far as I can tell, that's basically lipservice - I barely ever see a VC member comment in a customs thread unless the design is being workshopped as SoV material. When TheAverageFan was designing, I was often the only person commenting. (Scytale and, to a lesser degree, wriggz are seemingly special cases who avoided this.) You can say what you want, but when you only seem to value designs heading for SoV and all the other threads are left feeling dead, it does give the impression that SoV is what people ought to be striding for, at least when it comes to peer recognition. It's a culture that I think is quite harmful to the community at large. That's why I think a Public Design system like C3G would be a good idea - then, people can do their workshopped from the ground up for VC designs, with a lesser chance of frustration because it will be worked on collectively rather than trying to decide which of multiple directions to be pulled in (the number of times I've seen initially fun and exciting designs collapse under the weight of trying to appeal to multiple Judges' conflicting ideas is honestly sad) and SoV can be left for the nomination of personal customs which people thing deserve the nod, rather than ones created from the ground up for it, which will then result in a lower workload for Judges and a faster turnaround.

Your comments about VC members not posting in the other customs threads makes me wonder if you read what we've been saying about the amount of time and commitment these projects take from us. I used to spend a lot of time looking at people's customs and commenting. When I have time, I still do. But I have a busy life and what time I do have for Heroscapers is taken up with these projects. They take a *lot* of work. I generally feel like most people appreciate the effort we put into the content we produce but maybe you just don't?

capsocrates September 25th, 2019 02:01 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Astroking112 (Post 2316060)
If recognition is a significant appeal to playtesting, though, then perhaps we could keep a list of the playtesters that contributed to a unit in a spoiler section of the book? It's just a quick spitballed idea, but something like that might help people see that their effort is greatly appreciated.

We should have done this a long time ago!

Sir Heroscape September 25th, 2019 02:24 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316172)
I love the idea of incentives btw. Sometimes small gestures can go a long way in making someone feel valued.

Maybe we didn't do a good enough job marketing it, but for those involved in the Playtesting Tournament there are being prizes awarded at the end of it. Those prizes consist of some of the unreleased C3V figures. That, to my knowledge, has never been done before and is an incredible incentive for playtesters to get involved. I imagine if we have the means to do so in the future, we will, if that's what it takes to get people involved in the projects.

Heroscaper Guy September 25th, 2019 03:25 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape (Post 2316218)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316172)
I love the idea of incentives btw. Sometimes small gestures can go a long way in making someone feel valued.

Maybe we didn't do a good enough job marketing it, but for those involved in the Playtesting Tournament there are being prizes awarded at the end of it. Those prizes consist of some of the unreleased C3V figures. That, to my knowledge, has never been done before and is an incredible incentive for playtesters to get involved. I imagine if we have the means to do so in the future, we will, if that's what it takes to get people involved in the projects.

Yeah dont think the other playtesting tourney had prizes. Heh, I remember the prize of Aquilla's Alliance in Season 3. Don't think that's ever gonna happen again.

Leaf_It September 25th, 2019 03:51 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape (Post 2316218)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316172)
I love the idea of incentives btw. Sometimes small gestures can go a long way in making someone feel valued.

Maybe we didn't do a good enough job marketing it, but for those involved in the Playtesting Tournament there are being prizes awarded at the end of it. Those prizes consist of some of the unreleased C3V figures. That, to my knowledge, has never been done before and is an incredible incentive for playtesters to get involved. I imagine if we have the means to do so in the future, we will, if that's what it takes to get people involved in the projects.

Incentives need to be different than just new designs, or even the figures for new designs. Those prizes are not bad, and they will motivate some players, but not every player. Even players that don't own everything like I do, will not always want everything. Getting a unreleased design/figure that they can't use at any real life meet ups (because no one else knows the design, or knows if it's even balanced) for several months, or possibly even years, isn't going to get that much participation.

I own all official units, and C3V/SoV, in quantities large enough to take to a tournament, no matter how low/high the tier. I even buy the unused announced figures shortly after announcement. A small chunk of the online playtest images that have been added recently were taken by me. Something I've noticed since I completed my Heroscape Collection, prizes don't incentivize me much anymore. I have anything I could want, and anything that I might want in the future, I will probably buy before the opportunity to win it will arrive. I'm explaining this so that you understand, I don't care about the prizes when I go to tournaments. I certainly used to, but even back then, the main reason I enter tournaments, is because playing with other people is way more fun than playing by yourself. I don't playtest C3V designs very often, mostly because to me, playtesting means playing by myself. I would rather playtest my own designs, if I'm going to playtest by myself. I decided to enter the playtest tournament because I would be playing with other people.

I want to clarify that I'm not against playtesting for the C3V, I just have no motivation to do so. I would probably be way more willing to do so if I could playtest with other people. For me personally, my work schedule has me busy during the times of day (~3pm to ~1am depending on the day, and what is needed) that most people are free, so even online heroscape doesn't tend to workout for me. Sir Heroscape can testify to the number of times he has sent me a message to play online, and gotten a response an hour or more later, that I'm at work, and won't be off until he's asleep. This will be changing in a few weeks. I'm moving up into a new position, and I'll be working mornings mostly. 5 and half years of late night, or over night, shifts finally comes to an end. I'll probably run a playtest or two for the C3V each week once that starts, just because I'll be able to do so online with a real person.

Heroscaper Guy September 25th, 2019 03:58 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaf_It (Post 2316223)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape (Post 2316218)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316172)
I love the idea of incentives btw. Sometimes small gestures can go a long way in making someone feel valued.

Maybe we didn't do a good enough job marketing it, but for those involved in the Playtesting Tournament there are being prizes awarded at the end of it. Those prizes consist of some of the unreleased C3V figures. That, to my knowledge, has never been done before and is an incredible incentive for playtesters to get involved. I imagine if we have the means to do so in the future, we will, if that's what it takes to get people involved in the projects.

Incentives need to be different than just new designs, or even the figures for new designs. Those prizes are not bad, and they will motivate some players, but not every player. Even players that don't own everything like I do, will not always want everything. Getting a unreleased design/figure that they can't use at any real life meet ups (because no one else knows the design, or knows if it's even balanced) for several months, or possibly even years, isn't going to get that much participation.

I own all official units, and C3V/SoV, in quantities large enough to take to a tournament, no matter how low/high the tier. I even buy the unused announced figures shortly after announcement. A small chunk of the online playtest images that have been added recently were taken by me. Something I've noticed since I completed my Heroscape Collection, prizes don't incentivize me much anymore. I have anything I could want, and anything that I might want in the future, I will probably buy before the opportunity to win it will arrive. I'm explaining this so that you understand, I don't care about the prizes when I go to tournaments. I certainly used to, but even back then, the main reason I enter tournaments, is because playing with other people is way more fun than playing by yourself. I don't playtest C3V designs very often, mostly because to me, playtesting means playing by myself. I would rather playtest my own designs, if I'm going to playtest by myself. I decided to enter the playtest tournament because I would be playing with other people.

I want to clarify that I'm not against playtesting for the C3V, I just have no motivation to do so. I would probably be way more willing to do so if I could playtest with other people. For me personally, my work schedule has me busy during the times of day (~3pm to ~1am depending on the day, and what is needed) that most people are free, so even online heroscape doesn't tend to workout for me. Sir Heroscape can testify to the number of times he has sent me a message to play online, and gotten a response an hour or more later, that I'm at work, and won't be off until he's asleep. This will be changing in a few weeks. I'm moving up into a new position, and I'll be working mornings mostly. 5 and half years of late night, or over night, shifts finally comes to an end. I'll probably run a playtest or two for the C3V each week once that starts, just because I'll be able to do so online with a real person.

I mean honestly, send me a message if you want to playtest online. I work online atm, so I could honestly do it while playing (and have hours I pick so don't have to do that either). Plus I'm a night owl (3 am here, and can't sleep so).

Leaf_It September 25th, 2019 04:36 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Heroscaper Guy (Post 2316224)
I mean honestly, send me a message if you want to playtest online. I work online atm, so I could honestly do it while playing (and have hours I pick so don't have to do that either). Plus I'm a night owl (3 am here, and can't sleep so).

Neat, I'll keep you in mind.

Lazy Orang September 25th, 2019 07:10 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 2316215)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316027)
I've also noticed that, while those in VC keep saying they want to see more people designing not necessarily with VC in mind, as far as I can tell, that's basically lipservice - I barely ever see a VC member comment in a customs thread unless the design is being workshopped as SoV material. When TheAverageFan was designing, I was often the only person commenting. (Scytale and, to a lesser degree, wriggz are seemingly special cases who avoided this.) You can say what you want, but when you only seem to value designs heading for SoV and all the other threads are left feeling dead, it does give the impression that SoV is what people ought to be striding for, at least when it comes to peer recognition. It's a culture that I think is quite harmful to the community at large. That's why I think a Public Design system like C3G would be a good idea - then, people can do their workshopped from the ground up for VC designs, with a lesser chance of frustration because it will be worked on collectively rather than trying to decide which of multiple directions to be pulled in (the number of times I've seen initially fun and exciting designs collapse under the weight of trying to appeal to multiple Judges' conflicting ideas is honestly sad) and SoV can be left for the nomination of personal customs which people thing deserve the nod, rather than ones created from the ground up for it, which will then result in a lower workload for Judges and a faster turnaround.

Your comments about VC members not posting in the other customs threads makes me wonder if you read what we've been saying about the amount of time and commitment these projects take from us. I used to spend a lot of time looking at people's customs and commenting. When I have time, I still do. But I have a busy life and what time I do have for Heroscapers is taken up with these projects. They take a *lot* of work. I generally feel like most people appreciate the effort we put into the content we produce but maybe you just don't?

I'm not saying that, I'm not blaming anyone, and I'm making no judgements. I'm just stating a clear case of cause and effect. Since people only tend to get comments when workshopping for SoV, it clearly incentivises putting all your energy into getting a submission and deincentivises personal creativity. Whatever the cause of it, all the lipservice to the value of personal customs in the world isn't going to change the fact that, in the current system, they aren't treated as having any real value, and going for a SoV submission has become increasingly what the customs community is 'for'.


Also:


Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2315855)
Release schedule
The C3V has done amazing work and has really kept this community alive. I do love the releases and look forward to each and every one of them. However, the release schedule seems to be a little sporadic and unpredictable.

I understand that there is a goal to “get it right” and release when its ready, but keep in mind that if you were a retail business, you wouldn’t have the luxury of not releasing a product. It has been often remarked in business that the most creative ideas and the best products were released under difficult restraints. Think back to your favorite Nintendo music of yesterday. You can remember those songs can’t you? And yet they were produced under very limited hardware which, incidentally forced the designer to be as creative as possible. Keeping to a release schedule is tough, but it does help reduce some of the discussion over the minutia while focusing on what is really important.

It will also help with the momentum for the project. I think if you want the general community to be involved, you have to keep to some schedule so that people can look forward to each release. This is something that I think the C3G does really well since there is always something new around the corner.



I agree with all of this, 100%. The glacial pace of C3V releases does not help to make it feel vibrant. C3G manages a fairly astounding pace and maintains strong balance... I don't think a pace of one full Wave (released together for a bigger impact) should be impossible, particularly if you lay down greater and more obvious incentives for playtesting.


I'll also say that VC feels far too beholden to what's come before, to a frankly staggering degree. Take the 3 Range argument - there were people arguing that, because the designers hadn't given anyone 3 Range, there was clearly a reason, so we shouldn't either. I'm sorry, but what? There is no issue that would open up, and the reason the official designers didn't design anyone with 3 Range is because there hadn't been anyone for whom 3 Range would be fitting. It's not this important gap - it's something they understandably never got round to, because, granted, it is a tad niche. This is just one example of an attitude that I feel is directly hostile to creativity. I remember reading that 'being different is a weakness, not a strength', to paraphrase. You do seem to be actively hostile to new ideas.


Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2316065)
I personally feel no responsibility or inclination to provide feedback on personal custom threads. I'm here for collaboration and enjoy group projects that are give and take. I have no real incentive to get involved in personal custom threads of other people and no real interest in what they're doing. To me, personal custom threads, where it's about a singular designer rather than collaboration, are much more of an all take, no give situation. :2cents:


Personal designers neither ask for outside testing nor do they singlehandedly dominate the landscape. It's not really comparable, in any way. There may be little give, but there's virtually zero take.

Also, while I'm certainly not against collaboration, I feel as though the veneration of it over everything else is concerning. Personal creativity can be just as valuable as the collaboration of a larger group - I feel as though an attitude that's almost critical of someone persuing their own ideas and interests is deeply harmful, and has resulted in the place we're in now.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2019 07:48 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316233)
Personal designers neither ask for outside testing nor do they singlehandedly dominate the landscape. It's not really comparable, in any way. There may be little give, but there's virtually zero take.

Your entire complaint is based on their wanting to take more and not being able to. There's very little give from personal customs and if there's very little take it's not because personal customs don't want to take, it's because people aren't interested. Personal customs, by their nature, are a self-centered pursuit, so it shouldn't be shocking when you don't always inspire participation from others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316233)
Also, while I'm certainly not against collaboration, I feel as though the veneration of it over everything else is concerning. Personal creativity can be just as valuable as the collaboration of a larger group - I feel as though an attitude that's almost critical of someone persuing their own ideas and interests is deeply harmful, and has resulted in the place we're in now.

Plenty of people venerate personal customs over collaboration. Plenty of people do personal customizing over collaboration. And I'm totally happy for them to do so (literally no skin off my nose). The difference between these two pursuits is that one, by definition, is an individual pursuit, and one, by definition, is a community pursuit. Should it be any surprise, then, that the community pursuit involves more group discussions, energy, and involvement?

I'm not saying personal customs are objectively worse than collaborative projects (I believe that they are the majority of the time, but that's an argument for another time, irrelevant to this discussion). I'm saying I'm not interested in participating in personal customs. Personal customs are a way of saying: I want to do this my way, this is my vision, and I'm not really interested in working together.

OK, so other than saying "hey, that's cool, man" what do I have to contribute to that compared to a collaborative effort?

At their best, personal customs might evolve into spontaneous collaboration, based on feedback and the openness of the person who will claim sole credit for the end product. That's personal customizing at its best. Why would I invest any significant time seeking out that interaction in personal custom threads, hoping to shift the winds that don't naturally blow that way, when I could just collaborate easily and naturally in a playground that's set up for that express purpose?

Personal creativity and collaboration are both worthwhile and should both coexist (and have and do just fine). But if you expect to get just as much attention working alone as you do working together, then you're not being honest to yourself about how the world does (or should) work.

SuperSamyon September 25th, 2019 08:50 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
In regards to commenting on custom projects
To everyone's defense, I think in 2019 forums are just old fashioned and most people would rather provide feedback on social media or a discord channel. Also, our forum has many different sections and sub sections which separates us even more (a whole other topic for discussion) so it's very easy to get lost or miss important threads.

Thankfully, we have a Facebook group for Heroscapers that has actually been picking up lately. People sometimes share their personal work as well and others offer feedback. To me, it is more conducent for discussion especially since sometimes I feel bad providing feedback in custom threads when it's not asked. At least on Facebook and discord when you post you are clearly asking for feedback.

Our Discord channel has also seen a lot of action with people providing feedback... Many of which comes from the C3V community.

In regards to recognizing playtesters
What a great idea to add their names to books! Especially since if you really think about it, the real reason why so many people want their customs in the SOV is not just to have their work recognized but to have their name as a contributor to the Heroscape Canon. Adding playtestors names to the books will help with that desire and most likely increase participation. It may also help people to start designing for designing sake since their name is recognized elsewhere.

By the way, kudos to our playtestors today. Their detailed reports are amazing and I'm so impressed whenever I see someone take the time to write a book on their thoughts.

robbdaman September 25th, 2019 09:15 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316233)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2315855)
Release schedule
The C3V has done amazing work and has really kept this community alive. I do love the releases and look forward to each and every one of them. However, the release schedule seems to be a little sporadic and unpredictable.

I understand that there is a goal to “get it right” and release when its ready, but keep in mind that if you were a retail business, you wouldn’t have the luxury of not releasing a product. It has been often remarked in business that the most creative ideas and the best products were released under difficult restraints. Think back to your favorite Nintendo music of yesterday. You can remember those songs can’t you? And yet they were produced under very limited hardware which, incidentally forced the designer to be as creative as possible. Keeping to a release schedule is tough, but it does help reduce some of the discussion over the minutia while focusing on what is really important.

It will also help with the momentum for the project. I think if you want the general community to be involved, you have to keep to some schedule so that people can look forward to each release. This is something that I think the C3G does really well since there is always something new around the corner.


I agree with all of this, 100%. The glacial pace of C3V releases does not help to make it feel vibrant. C3G manages a fairly astounding pace and maintains strong balance... I don't think a pace of one full Wave (released together for a bigger impact) should be impossible, particularly if you lay down greater and more obvious incentives for playtesting.


I'll also say that VC feels far too beholden to what's come before, to a frankly staggering degree. Take the 3 Range argument - there were people arguing that, because the designers hadn't given anyone 3 Range, there was clearly a reason, so we shouldn't either. I'm sorry, but what? There is no issue that would open up, and the reason the official designers didn't design anyone with 3 Range is because there hadn't been anyone for whom 3 Range would be fitting. It's not this important gap - it's something they understandably never got round to, because, granted, it is a tad niche. This is just one example of an attitude that I feel is directly hostile to creativity. I remember reading that 'being different is a weakness, not a strength', to paraphrase. You do seem to be actively hostile to new ideas.

I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

flameslayer93 September 25th, 2019 09:55 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?
It helps when designs are good from the get go when they enter testing. I recall testing Marutuk years ago, and she wasn’t good enough imo. The last version I tested of her really made her feel like a big DnD monster boss, kinda what I think they were going for (without actually knowing what were going for).

The 12th Caucus Rifles also got changed quite a bit, their Gas Grenade was a d20 power. Right now it’s a Special Attack that works as a third attack per turn. I’ve no idea how many other versions the C3V have tried so far.

SuperSamyon September 25th, 2019 10:09 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
I actually believe that announcing a figure two years in advance before you can release it (although obviously not the intention) really damages the C3V project. I only play Heroscape so owning a figure that doesn't have a card is just going to take up space and collect dust. Like all other Heroscape players will attest to, space is always a factor for Heroscape. Also, when it finally does launch, the figure is sometimes completely unavailable for purchase. I would love it if once a figure is announced, the C3V team commits to have it launch within 6 months or sooner. That so be a great customer service gesture.

Something to consider is to simply bolster the ranks of the C3V to take on the backlog. The community is smaller, yes, but if people are posting on a forum in 2019 for a niche game, they are pretty engaged and committed. I see the playtestors as prime candidates for induction. As flame alluded above me, bringing more testers at the ground level helps speed the process along since designs are not sent back quite as often.

I think the silent majority lives in the Facebook groups and the passionate minority lives on these forums. It is for that reason that I believe ever single person who posts regularly on these forums should have a job if they want one. Barring of course individuals who do not work well with others.

Kinseth September 25th, 2019 10:21 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316276)
I actually believe that announcing a figure two years in advance before you can release it (although obviously not the intention) really damages the C3V project. I only play Heroscape so owning a figure that doesn't have a card is just going to take up space and collect dust. Like all other Heroscape players will attest to, space is always a factor for Heroscape. Also, when it finally does launch, the figure is sometimes completely unavailable for purchase. I would love it if once a figure is announced, the C3V team commits to have it launch within 6 months or sooner. That so be a great customer service gesture.

What you are asking for is just not possible with the constraints that we are faced with. (Waiting on the miniatures available to the public, releases from Pathfinder etc.) We don't have the ability to design our own sculpts.

What I do know, is we move as quickly as we can on a unit, but each unit moves at it's own speed depending on numerous things. Each can have it's own set of criteria. Is the unit super complex? How does it interact with X, Y, Z? Is it fun? Back to the drawing board due to playtesting results(12th, Marutuk as examples). It took a long time for those figures to get the right feel, the right suggestion from someone to move them along.

There is no cookie cutter approach, a secret formula. Original designers could say we want Goblins. Start designing Goblin unit and wait for the Sculpt to be done. We do not have the resources to do that.

What I can say, is we try to get a unit out to the public as fast as we can, and we want that unit to be complete.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2019 11:22 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Is there some significant group of people who want a position in one of these projects that doesn't have one?

Scytale September 25th, 2019 11:24 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316006)
I will add however, that there are still things that each project can do to turn things around and get more people engaged. Today if someone was interested in joining a team, how would they go about doing that? Is there an email list to email, phone number to call, or a point of contact to submit a resume to? Or is it currently setup so that "we'll call you, don't call us."

I won't speak for C3V, but in SoV we call out for new people to join when someone steps down. Sometimes aggressively. We do not guarantee admission, though; it's a contest to see who is most qualified and able, and just submitting takes a fair amount of work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316027)
I've also noticed that, while those in VC keep saying they want to see more people designing not necessarily with VC in mind, as far as I can tell, that's basically lipservice - I barely ever see a VC member comment in a customs thread unless the design is being workshopped as SoV material.

I admit to not commenting on customs threads much anymore. That's not a statement of VC preference, though. I used to do a lot with customs, making my own, listening to comments, and giving comments. But my interest in Heroscape customs has waned; I almost never make new ones and I don't have much excitement for looking at others. My roles in VC are a separate thing. I didn't accept roles in SoV or C3V to have fun (and, for the most part, they are work, not play), I did so to do provide my skills and time to help with quality control for the continuation of the game. As I am in and run Heroscape tournaments, a growing, changing game is of great value, and tournament-level quality is paramount.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316233)
I remember reading that 'being different is a weakness, not a strength', to paraphrase. You do seem to be actively hostile to new ideas.

The fact that you read that quote as hostile to new ideas is exactly the problem I was trying to point out. A lot of custom creators mistake new or changed powers for "creativity." While it does take a certain amount of creativity to create or change a power, defining creativity by that is mistaking the process for the goal. All the wild ideas and complex text that can be written into a power doesn't by itself mean a thing when the plastic hits the board. What's important is how the unit plays. If it plays differently than what has come before, and feels thematic and (most importantly!) fun, that's demonstrating true creativity. That's independent of how new or exciting the powers are.

The more I worked on customs the more I came to realize that achieving that creativity with simple and/or reused powers was much more difficult than creating something new. When I did achieve that, when I would have people come over to play a round of Heroscape they were much more excited about those units than the more "creative" ones. And really, that's totally natural. For players that don't play the game a ton, every new power, every new mechanic, was something they would have to learn and process and potentially misunderstand (sometimes to ill effect). A new unit with a couple powers they recognize and/or could easily understand, yet played differently? Of course they liked it!

So I'm firm in my belief that changing things up "just to be different" is missing the boat. If the unit really does play differently and feels thematic with a reused power, changing that power to be something slightly different is only creating a barrier to people liking that unit. Of course new powers and new mechanics are great and important, and we all love to see things that are truly new and exciting, but don't shy away from something just because it's been done before. Embrace it, if that's what's best for the unit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbdaman (Post 2316252)
I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

I was surprised when I first entered the Inner Sanctum and saw how it was built. The process is designer-focused, not output-focused. The whole concept is for people to find miniatures, come up with a design, and rework that design as they move it through the process. One side effect of that is that if a designer loses interest in a design, or leaves the project, that design will stall. That can and has happened to figures that were announced. When a design starts the process, there is no plan for when it will be released or what other units it will be "packaged" with. We build Waves once enough stuff has gotten far enough through the process and package together what we have. There are no deadlines or any checks and balances to ensure that units keep moving along once announced.

robbdaman September 25th, 2019 11:52 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Yeah, there's at least a couple figures that were announced over 5 years ago and there's still nothing available to the public. A couple years of turn around I understand, six definitely shows ball dropping. Makes sense given people come and go and there are only certain core people still there. Life happens and passionate about it all or not this is a volunteer project that we do in our spare time.

quozl September 25th, 2019 11:54 AM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
There's a thread just started about using alternate sculpts here.

Scytale September 25th, 2019 12:02 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316276)
I would love it if once a figure is announced, the C3V team commits to have it launch within 6 months or sooner. That so be a great customer service gesture.

We would have to hire people to get that kind of throughput. The 10-20 hours a week we put into it won't be nearly enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316276)
Something to consider is to simply bolster the ranks of the C3V to take on the backlog.

Adding more people would make the process take longer, not make it go quicker.

Most of the time a unit spends in the process is during periods of arguing or waiting. A lot, lot of time is spent discussing (often arguing) about a unit. Since none of us do this as our job, we aren't sitting on the forums waiting to respond. It's a back-and-forth that takes days to play out as we each get on and respond when we have time to dedicate. Most of us do that daily or multiple times a day, but we don't all go through all of the discussions we're on each time. We're on dozens at any one time, and each one could take a fair amount of time and effort to read through the recent posts and develop a response. And that's just simply responding, not the long processes like running checklists. Because we are on numerous threads at any one time, some stall while others heat up. It's just part of how things go. We're currently working through 9 units in Editing, each which takes days to weeks of back-and-forths to get through.

So much of a unit's time is spent in discussions. Adding another person to that discussion exponentially increases the time it takes to get everyone to agree. While in theory we could divide up the work between multiple teams in each department, we'd need a lot more people, particularly in departments that have high skill requirements and little recognition/fun. Even then, Sanctum-wide operations such as Inner Sanctum Review would become much longer.

Dad_Scaper September 25th, 2019 12:03 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
As for announced minis "stalling," it's been a problem in the past. I am aware that there are some long-announced minis that have not been released yet, and that's distressing. To our fans, of course, but also to us.

But (off the top of my head) I don't think we have any announced mini currently in the Sanctum that is, as of this moment, actually stalled. Our internal gears are functioning right now more cleanly than I ever remember them turning before.

I am aware that, from the outside, it may look like we have stalling units and/or people on the voting rolls who no longer belong there. To the best of my knowledge, neither of those is actually true, to the extent that my opinion as an insider might have value. I would, however, say that both have been true at times in the past, and I certainly acknowledge that both present serious challenges to the continued vitality of the project.

But we've somehow kept the train moving, this whole time, and I feel like we're in a pretty good place right now. Others are free to disagree, of course. Just my 2c.

edit:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316276)
Something to consider is to simply bolster the ranks of the C3V to take on the backlog.

Adding more people would make the process take longer, not make it go quicker.

QFT. All the cats have different ideas, and it is the herding process that takes time.

SuperSamyon September 25th, 2019 12:15 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 2316322)

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbdaman (Post 2316252)
I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

I was surprised when I first entered the Inner Sanctum and saw how it was built. The process is designer-focused, not output-focused. The whole concept is for people to find miniatures, come up with a design, and rework that design as they move it through the process. One side effect of that is that if a designer loses interest in a design, or leaves the project, that design will stall. That can and has happened to figures that were announced. When a design starts the process, there is no plan for when it will be released or what other units it will be "packaged" with. We build Waves once enough stuff has gotten far enough through the process and package together what we have. There are no deadlines or any checks and balances to ensure that units keep moving along once announced.

This right here may be what needs to be addressed. It sounds like we need a project manager.

It's interesting to see, Scytale, that you prefer to participate in this for the skills. I think that is very smart of you. I would imagine others felt the same so perhaps the solution for some of the woes is to simply start running it more like a business and once a figure is announced to the public its "on the clock" and given sole focus by the team to get it launched. If the mini isn't announced, then folks can take as much time as they need to "get it right."

This might be the corporate America in me speaking, but I find that emails and forum posts too slow and not conducive to fast production. Perhaps setting up a weekly conference call would be better so you guys can quickly talk through the design? A few words spoken saves minutes from typing lol.

@Kinseth thank you for your response. What do you think about my above suggestion? Figures not announced to the public can take all the time needed to get it right and once the figured is announced its just about complete?

Kinseth September 25th, 2019 12:16 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316361)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 2316322)

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbdaman (Post 2316252)
I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

I was surprised when I first entered the Inner Sanctum and saw how it was built. The process is designer-focused, not output-focused. The whole concept is for people to find miniatures, come up with a design, and rework that design as they move it through the process. One side effect of that is that if a designer loses interest in a design, or leaves the project, that design will stall. That can and has happened to figures that were announced. When a design starts the process, there is no plan for when it will be released or what other units it will be "packaged" with. We build Waves once enough stuff has gotten far enough through the process and package together what we have. There are no deadlines or any checks and balances to ensure that units keep moving along once announced.

This right here may be what needs to be addressed. It sounds like we need a project manager.

It's interesting to see, Scytale, that you prefer to participate in this for the skills. I think that is very smart of you. I would imagine others felt the same so perhaps the solution for some of the woes is to simply start running it more like a business and once a figure is announced to the public its "on the clock" and given sole focus by the team to get it launched. If the mini isn't announced, then folks can take as much time as they need to "get it right."

This might be the corporate America in me speaking, but I find that emails and forum posts too slow and not conducive to fast production. Perhaps setting up a weekly conference call would be better so you guys can quickly talk through the design? A few words spoken saves minutes from typing lol.

Let me know who is signing the paychecks...

Lazy Orang September 25th, 2019 12:18 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2316353)
As for announced minis "stalling," it's been a problem in the past. I am aware that there are some long-announced minis that have not been released yet, and that's distressing. To our fans, of course, but also to us.

But (off the top of my head) I don't think we have any announced mini currently in the Sanctum that is, as of this moment, actually stalled. Our internal gears are functioning right now more cleanly than I ever remember them turning before.

I am aware that, from the outside, it may look like we have stalling units and/or people on the voting rolls who no longer belong there. To the best of my knowledge, neither of those is actually true, to the extent that my opinion as an insider might have value. I would, however, say that both have been true at times in the past, and I certainly acknowledge that both present serious challenges to the continued vitality of the project.

But we've somehow kept the train moving, this whole time, and I feel like we're in a pretty good place right now. Others are free to disagree, of course. Just my 2c.

But perception matters as much as reality. The project looks dead, it feels dead, and the people who can't see the internal gears only have words.


Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316361)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 2316322)

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbdaman (Post 2316252)
I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

I was surprised when I first entered the Inner Sanctum and saw how it was built. The process is designer-focused, not output-focused. The whole concept is for people to find miniatures, come up with a design, and rework that design as they move it through the process. One side effect of that is that if a designer loses interest in a design, or leaves the project, that design will stall. That can and has happened to figures that were announced. When a design starts the process, there is no plan for when it will be released or what other units it will be "packaged" with. We build Waves once enough stuff has gotten far enough through the process and package together what we have. There are no deadlines or any checks and balances to ensure that units keep moving along once announced.

This right here may be what needs to be addressed. It sounds like we need a project manager.

It's interesting to see, Scytale, that you prefer to participate in this for the skills. I think that is very smart of you. I would imagine others felt the same so perhaps the solution for some of the woes is to simply start running it more like a business and once a figure is announced to the public its "on the clock" and given sole focus by the team to get it launched. If the mini isn't announced, then folks can take as much time as they need to "get it right."

This might be the corporate America in me speaking, but I find that emails and forum posts too slow and not conducive to fast production. Perhaps setting up a weekly conference call would be better so you guys can quickly talk through the design? A few words spoken saves minutes from typing lol.

@Kinseth thank you for your response. What do you think about my above suggestion? Figures not announced to the public can take all the time needed to get it right and once the figured is announced its just about complete?

At C3G it generally takes no more than a month or two (maybe three) between a design thread being posted and it being finalised for release. There are exceptions (we've had some lasting several years if an LD goes AWOL), but those are exceptionally rare. Loads of the units we've been releasing recently (though certainly not all of them) weren't in production when the year started. It doesn't need to to take this long. It feels as though the standard time frame for a C3V design is about equal to the ones that become in-jokes in C3G for how bloody long they took, and those designs only did so because of the amount of time there was no one working on them. That's... kind of ludicrous.


Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2316236)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316233)
Personal designers neither ask for outside testing nor do they singlehandedly dominate the landscape. It's not really comparable, in any way. There may be little give, but there's virtually zero take.

Your entire complaint is based on their wanting to take more and not being able to. There's very little give from personal customs and if there's very little take it's not because personal customs don't want to take, it's because people aren't interested. Personal customs, by their nature, are a self-centered pursuit, so it shouldn't be shocking when you don't always inspire participation from others.

Commenting and a degree of recognition =/= actual concerted effort playtesting. All I'm saying is that it feels as though designs posted without a SoV nomination in consideration are shouting into the void these days, whereas if you mention its intention to go to the big leagues and actually 'do something important', only then do people care. Of course that's disparaging, and it wasn't the case before SoV planted its flag and came to dominate the customs landscape.

Kinseth September 25th, 2019 12:20 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316361)
@Kinseth thank you for your response. What do you think about my above suggestion? Figures not announced to the public can take all the time needed to get it right and once the figured is announced its just about complete?

If we made our own sculpts, sure. Sadly, supply can dry out. I've seen issues from C3V where they failed to announce the Mini soon enough, a design was moved along and then got caught realize they didn't have enough supply on websites and had to stall the unit.

That will happen waaaay to often, announcing the mini has to come while the beginning phases start.

We work with what we have, and this is really the best compromise.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2019 12:20 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Guess it depends on your definition of "dead." C3V has a wave release on the front page of the site with more comments on it than C3G's last front page release. :shrug:

SuperSamyon September 25th, 2019 12:22 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2316363)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316361)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 2316322)

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbdaman (Post 2316252)
I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

I was surprised when I first entered the Inner Sanctum and saw how it was built. The process is designer-focused, not output-focused. The whole concept is for people to find miniatures, come up with a design, and rework that design as they move it through the process. One side effect of that is that if a designer loses interest in a design, or leaves the project, that design will stall. That can and has happened to figures that were announced. When a design starts the process, there is no plan for when it will be released or what other units it will be "packaged" with. We build Waves once enough stuff has gotten far enough through the process and package together what we have. There are no deadlines or any checks and balances to ensure that units keep moving along once announced.

This right here may be what needs to be addressed. It sounds like we need a project manager.

It's interesting to see, Scytale, that you prefer to participate in this for the skills. I think that is very smart of you. I would imagine others felt the same so perhaps the solution for some of the woes is to simply start running it more like a business and once a figure is announced to the public its "on the clock" and given sole focus by the team to get it launched. If the mini isn't announced, then folks can take as much time as they need to "get it right."

This might be the corporate America in me speaking, but I find that emails and forum posts too slow and not conducive to fast production. Perhaps setting up a weekly conference call would be better so you guys can quickly talk through the design? A few words spoken saves minutes from typing lol.

Let me know who is signing the paychecks...

Haha right? Even though the word business sounds like work, it may actually make it easier. For instance, if a designer wants to take more time to create a character, wouldn't it be a better experience for both the designer and public if they don't feel rushed?

Once a figure is announced to the public, wouldn't it be a better experience to the public if they have a card to match it soon? And it's probably better to not announce anything until it's ready to be released.

I respect the hard work of the team, all I'm suggesting are ways to improve the optics and to make the project appear more alive. That's how you grow the community.

Edit: just saw your above response. A fair point for sure.

Kinseth September 25th, 2019 12:24 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

But perception matters as much as reality. The project looks dead, it feels dead, and the people who can't see the internal gears only have words.
If you look in the right places, you see Public Playtesting announcements & Tournaments. You also see when we accept a new sculpt, and make it known to the public we are working on a new design.

If anyone wants to get involved, public playtesting is the best route. Quality of tests and volume won't go unnoticed when it comes time to replace someone in the group. It is the first place we look.

Kevindola was brought on due to his playtesting voracity, as was the case for Sir Heroscape(Just recently).

Dad_Scaper September 25th, 2019 12:25 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316364)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2316353)
As for announced minis "stalling," it's been a problem in the past. I am aware that there are some long-announced minis that have not been released yet, and that's distressing. To our fans, of course, but also to us.

But (off the top of my head) I don't think we have any announced mini currently in the Sanctum that is, as of this moment, actually stalled. Our internal gears are functioning right now more cleanly than I ever remember them turning before.

I am aware that, from the outside, it may look like we have stalling units and/or people on the voting rolls who no longer belong there. To the best of my knowledge, neither of those is actually true, to the extent that my opinion as an insider might have value. I would, however, say that both have been true at times in the past, and I certainly acknowledge that both present serious challenges to the continued vitality of the project.

But we've somehow kept the train moving, this whole time, and I feel like we're in a pretty good place right now. Others are free to disagree, of course. Just my 2c.

But perception matters as much as reality. The project looks dead, it feels dead, and the people who can't see the internal gears only have words.

Oh, sure. This is absolutely true. I wasn't aware that we looked dead, though. I mean, I *thought* we do stuff with community engagement, and occasional releases.

But you've objected that it tends to be insular, and that's a fair objection. Just as I don't spend much time poking around the non-VC customs threads, a person who isn't often poking at our edges would not see much activity from the outside.

I certainly agree with you in principle, though. That looking like a dead project is not good for the image of the project. We are not simply nailed to the perch, of course, but you aren't on the inside.

It is my goal that our productivity rate will increase, and there's no reason why it shouldn't.

Lazy Orang September 25th, 2019 12:28 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2316366)
Guess it depends on your definition of "dead." C3V has a wave release on the front page of the site with more comments on it than C3G's last front page release. :shrug:

Not a fair comparison - C3G's a comparatively fringe product, being a continuation of a fringe aspect of a dead game - of course it's less popular - but it's actual activity is far greater. We have a release every month now - C3V is lucky to churn out, what, 6 units a year? Interest =/= activity. C3V could be far more active than C3G with the greater amount of interest poured in, but it achieves far less.

SuperSamyon September 25th, 2019 12:29 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Wow this thread is moving fast!

Perhaps to combat the appearance of a dead project, we should update the homepage more often. @superfrog just made a great announcement about PAM that I'm sure many people missed. It's a perfect example of something that should be placed on the homepage.

Lazy Orang September 25th, 2019 12:29 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316361)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 2316322)

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbdaman (Post 2316252)
I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

I was surprised when I first entered the Inner Sanctum and saw how it was built. The process is designer-focused, not output-focused. The whole concept is for people to find miniatures, come up with a design, and rework that design as they move it through the process. One side effect of that is that if a designer loses interest in a design, or leaves the project, that design will stall. That can and has happened to figures that were announced. When a design starts the process, there is no plan for when it will be released or what other units it will be "packaged" with. We build Waves once enough stuff has gotten far enough through the process and package together what we have. There are no deadlines or any checks and balances to ensure that units keep moving along once announced.

This right here may be what needs to be addressed. It sounds like we need a project manager.

It's interesting to see, Scytale, that you prefer to participate in this for the skills. I think that is very smart of you. I would imagine others felt the same so perhaps the solution for some of the woes is to simply start running it more like a business and once a figure is announced to the public its "on the clock" and given sole focus by the team to get it launched. If the mini isn't announced, then folks can take as much time as they need to "get it right."

This might be the corporate America in me speaking, but I find that emails and forum posts too slow and not conducive to fast production. Perhaps setting up a weekly conference call would be better so you guys can quickly talk through the design? A few words spoken saves minutes from typing lol.

@Kinseth thank you for your response. What do you think about my above suggestion? Figures not announced to the public can take all the time needed to get it right and once the figured is announced its just about complete?

At C3G it generally takes no more than a month or two (maybe three) between a design thread being posted and it being finalised for release. There are exceptions (we've had some lasting several years if an LD goes AWOL), but those are exceptionally rare. Loads of the units we've been releasing recently (though certainly not all of them) weren't in production when the year started. It doesn't need to to take this long. It feels as though the standard time frame for a C3V design is about equal to the ones that become in-jokes in C3G for how bloody long they took, and those designs only did so because of the amount of time there was no one working on them. That's... kind of ludicrous.


Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2316236)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316233)
Personal designers neither ask for outside testing nor do they singlehandedly dominate the landscape. It's not really comparable, in any way. There may be little give, but there's virtually zero take.

Your entire complaint is based on their wanting to take more and not being able to. There's very little give from personal customs and if there's very little take it's not because personal customs don't want to take, it's because people aren't interested. Personal customs, by their nature, are a self-centered pursuit, so it shouldn't be shocking when you don't always inspire participation from others.

Commenting and a degree of recognition =/= actual concerted effort playtesting. All I'm saying is that it feels as though designs posted without a SoV nomination in consideration are shouting into the void these days, whereas if you mention its intention to go to the big leagues and actually 'do something important', only then do people care. Of course that's disparaging, and it wasn't the case before SoV planted its flag and came to dominate the customs landscape.

Kinseth September 25th, 2019 12:31 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Do you think we could have a status report for the public, that is vague enough? Kind of like a % meter.

X Units are currently in Design
X Units are currently in Editing
X Units are currently under review
X Units are currently in Playtesting
X Units are currently in Public Playtesting
X Units are in Art, prepping to be released?

SuperSamyon September 25th, 2019 12:32 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kinseth (Post 2316376)
Do you think we could have a status report for the public, that is vague enough? Kind of like a % meter.

X Units are currently in Design
X Units are currently in Editing
X Units are currently under review
X Units are currently in Playtesting
X Units are currently in Public Playtesting
X Units are in Art, prepping to be released?

Absolutely, along with important announcements like the PAM announcement. I think weekly updates will be great. Perhaps every Friday or so?

Lazy Orang September 25th, 2019 12:33 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2316372)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316364)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2316353)
As for announced minis "stalling," it's been a problem in the past. I am aware that there are some long-announced minis that have not been released yet, and that's distressing. To our fans, of course, but also to us.

But (off the top of my head) I don't think we have any announced mini currently in the Sanctum that is, as of this moment, actually stalled. Our internal gears are functioning right now more cleanly than I ever remember them turning before.

I am aware that, from the outside, it may look like we have stalling units and/or people on the voting rolls who no longer belong there. To the best of my knowledge, neither of those is actually true, to the extent that my opinion as an insider might have value. I would, however, say that both have been true at times in the past, and I certainly acknowledge that both present serious challenges to the continued vitality of the project.

But we've somehow kept the train moving, this whole time, and I feel like we're in a pretty good place right now. Others are free to disagree, of course. Just my 2c.

But perception matters as much as reality. The project looks dead, it feels dead, and the people who can't see the internal gears only have words.

Oh, sure. This is absolutely true. I wasn't aware that we looked dead, though. I mean, I *thought* we do stuff with community engagement, and occasional releases.

But you've objected that it tends to be insular, and that's a fair objection. Just as I don't spend much time poking around the non-VC customs threads, a person who isn't often poking at our edges would not see much activity from the outside.

I certainly agree with you in principle, though. That looking like a dead project is not good for the image of the project. We are not simply nailed to the perch, of course, but you aren't on the inside.

It is my goal that our productivity rate will increase, and there's no reason why it shouldn't.

Okay, 'dead' was honestly hyperbole - dead is the likes of HoME, Historyscape and Mythscape (if you don't know what I'm referring to... that kind of proves my point). But it certainly seems sluggish and inactive from the outside, which isn't as bad, but it's certainly not good.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2019 12:38 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316364)
Commenting and a degree of recognition =/= actual concerted effort playtesting. All I'm saying is that it feels as though designs posted without a SoV nomination in consideration are shouting into the void these days, whereas if you mention its intention to go to the big leagues and actually 'do something important', only then do people care. Of course that's disparaging, and it wasn't the case before SoV planted its flag and came to dominate the customs landscape.

Because it's the difference between saying "this is just my own vision and my own thing" and saying "this is something I want the community to use and I want to have meet community-wide standards."

I can go into your personal customs thread and tell you how I'd like to see you design things, but why? It's your personal custom threads. You're designing them with your vision, not mine.

But when you decide you want to create something that's for the whole community and is consistent with a certain standard I'm already familiar with and use and that you want the help and efforts of others to get there, then I have a clear end goal that gives meanings to my efforts.

Lazy Orang September 25th, 2019 12:40 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2316383)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316364)
Commenting and a degree of recognition =/= actual concerted effort playtesting. All I'm saying is that it feels as though designs posted without a SoV nomination in consideration are shouting into the void these days, whereas if you mention its intention to go to the big leagues and actually 'do something important', only then do people care. Of course that's disparaging, and it wasn't the case before SoV planted its flag and came to dominate the customs landscape.

Because it's the difference between saying "this is just my own vision and my own thing" and saying "this is something I want the community to use and I want to have meet community-wide standards."

I can go into your personal customs thread and tell you how I'd like to see you design things, but why? It's your personal custom threads. You're designing them with your vision, not mine.

But when you decide you want to create something that's for the whole community and is consistent with a certain standard I'm already familiar with and use and that you want the help and efforts of others to get there, then I have a clear end goal that gives meanings to my efforts.

This never stopped friendly comments on designs threads before SoV, or on the threads of people who already had a following (i.e. Scytale).

robbdaman September 25th, 2019 12:41 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316379)
Okay, 'dead' was honestly hyperbole - dead is the likes of HoME, Historyscape and Mythscape (if you don't know what I'm referring to... that kind of proves my point). But it certainly seems sluggish and inactive from the outside, which isn't as bad, but it's certainly not good.

I didn't know what those were to begin with...

Suggestions for better PR and advertising?

IAmBatman September 25th, 2019 12:43 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316373)
Not a fair comparison - C3G's a comparatively fringe product, being a continuation of a fringe aspect of a dead game - of course it's less popular - but it's actual activity is far greater. We have a release every month now - C3V is lucky to churn out, what, 6 units a year? Interest =/= activity. C3V could be far more active than C3G with the greater amount of interest poured in, but it achieves far less.

I wasn't aware that superheroes were on the fringe of cultural consciousness. :-P

I'd say we're doing just fine, thank you. Not that any impression of "deadness" would affect my output or participation in the project one way or another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316379)
Okay, 'dead' was honestly hyperbole - dead is the likes of HoME, Historyscape and Mythscape (if you don't know what I'm referring to... that kind of proves my point). But it certainly seems sluggish and inactive from the outside, which isn't as bad, but it's certainly not good.

I have never known you to be hyperbolic, over the top, or at all careless with your word choices, LO. :-P ;-)


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