Heroscapers

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-   -   SOV/C3V Feedback Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=56161)

Dad_Scaper September 25th, 2019 01:57 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2316392)
An offer from the Heroscape Codex:

If anyone from the SoV or C3V would like to discuss how the behind the scenes stuff operates, I'm open to any articles or interviews.

I'd be happy to, Q. I promise to keep my language clean. :)

capsocrates September 25th, 2019 02:07 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316249)
To everyone's defense, I think in 2019 forums are just old fashioned and most people would rather provide feedback on social media or a discord channel. Also, our forum has many different sections and sub sections which separates us even more (a whole other topic for discussion) so it's very easy to get lost or miss important threads.

Thankfully, we have a Facebook group for Heroscapers that has actually been picking up lately. People sometimes share their personal work as well and others offer feedback. To me, it is more conducent for discussion especially since sometimes I feel bad providing feedback in custom threads when it's not asked. At least on Facebook and discord when you post you are clearly asking for feedback.

Our Discord channel has also seen a lot of action with people providing feedback... Many of which comes from the C3V community.

I cannot express how strongly I disagree with you on this. Facebook and discord are both *terrible* for asynchronous communication over a long period of time. On facebook I have difficulty finding where conversations were taking place or being certain that I've seen all the content. On discord it is really easy to fall behind and discord does very little to help you catch up over time.


On Heroscapers everything is neatly categorized and I can check in on just a few threads without affecting the "read/unread" status of the threads I don't have time for. Then when I do have time I can go back and hit those threads. If there are multiple pages of discussion, only the pages that I read get marked. Facebook and discord have nothing even close to that level of compartmentalization. I'm in the facebook group and the discord group; in the former everything feels disconnected and I'm never sure what's going on; in the latter I'm always way behind on any discussion because I don't have time to check the discord daily and the pace of conversation just moves too fast.


I actually wish more online communities were organized like "old fashioned" discussion boards (of which Heroscapers is one). On top of my comments regarding facebook and discord, I find reddit, for instance, to be similarly terrible for organized discussion of things.

Scytale September 25th, 2019 02:09 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 2316450)
I actually wish more online communities were organized like "old fashioned" discussion boards (of which Heroscapers is one). On top of my comments regarding facebook and discord, I find reddit, for instance, to be similarly terrible for organized discussion of things.

Agreed. Maybe we're just old.

capsocrates September 25th, 2019 02:13 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316361)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 2316322)

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbdaman (Post 2316252)
I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

I was surprised when I first entered the Inner Sanctum and saw how it was built. The process is designer-focused, not output-focused. The whole concept is for people to find miniatures, come up with a design, and rework that design as they move it through the process. One side effect of that is that if a designer loses interest in a design, or leaves the project, that design will stall. That can and has happened to figures that were announced. When a design starts the process, there is no plan for when it will be released or what other units it will be "packaged" with. We build Waves once enough stuff has gotten far enough through the process and package together what we have. There are no deadlines or any checks and balances to ensure that units keep moving along once announced.

This right here may be what needs to be addressed. It sounds like we need a project manager.

For not knowing much about how our projects work, you have a lot to say about how they *should* work. We have at least one person filling this role already.

Lazy Orang September 25th, 2019 02:16 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 2316450)
Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon (Post 2316249)
To everyone's defense, I think in 2019 forums are just old fashioned and most people would rather provide feedback on social media or a discord channel. Also, our forum has many different sections and sub sections which separates us even more (a whole other topic for discussion) so it's very easy to get lost or miss important threads.

Thankfully, we have a Facebook group for Heroscapers that has actually been picking up lately. People sometimes share their personal work as well and others offer feedback. To me, it is more conducent for discussion especially since sometimes I feel bad providing feedback in custom threads when it's not asked. At least on Facebook and discord when you post you are clearly asking for feedback.

Our Discord channel has also seen a lot of action with people providing feedback... Many of which comes from the C3V community.

I cannot express how strongly I disagree with you on this. Facebook and discord are both *terrible* for asynchronous communication over a long period of time. On facebook I have difficulty finding where conversations were taking place or being certain that I've seen all the content. On discord it is really easy to fall behind and discord does very little to help you catch up over time.


On Heroscapers everything is neatly categorized and I can check in on just a few threads without affecting the "read/unread" status of the threads I don't have time for. Then when I do have time I can go back and hit those threads. If there are multiple pages of discussion, only the pages that I read get marked. Facebook and discord have nothing even close to that level of compartmentalization. I'm in the facebook group and the discord group; in the former everything feels disconnected and I'm never sure what's going on; in the latter I'm always way behind on any discussion because I don't have time to check the discord daily and the pace of conversation just moves too fast.


I actually wish more online communities were organized like "old fashioned" discussion boards (of which Heroscapers is one). On top of my comments regarding facebook and discord, I find reddit, for instance, to be similarly terrible for organized discussion of things.

This is one thing I actually agree on. Discord is fun, but terrible for actual organisation. Facebook... that I have zero experience with.

superfrog September 25th, 2019 02:16 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
The ERB literally is responsible for project management.

Trust me, I do a lot of it, as do the other ERBers.

quozl September 25th, 2019 02:17 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2316447)
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2316392)
An offer from the Heroscape Codex:

If anyone from the SoV or C3V would like to discuss how the behind the scenes stuff operates, I'm open to any articles or interviews.

I'd be happy to, Q. I promise to keep my language clean. :)

Thank you!

For anyone who wants to make sure I ask the questions they'd like to see answers to, I created a thread where you can post those questions.

IAmBatman September 25th, 2019 02:22 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
In my experience (which is not insignificant) synchronous chat is great for brainstorming and asynchronous posting is best for workshopping. As in Skype and Discord are great places for getting your thoughts in order and banging out a solid, initial version of a design. But the fine tuning and tracking and working through the process works much better on a forum like this.

Not sure Facebook is great for anything besides posting memes and baby pictures and getting angry about other people's political views. :-P I guess they're pretty good at organizing events.

capsocrates September 25th, 2019 02:22 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316414)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2316411)
I get that sentiment, but that sentiment is pretty old and comes from a pretty "official" place in terms of the designers of the game themselves saying that Marvel and Valhalla stuff wasn't designed to be played together. If you aren't even meant to play all the official product together, seems as if the "Battle of All Time" is marketing more than mantra.

But then, I'd argue that the fact that the official game doesn't exist anymore should be used as an advantage. We now have a game, marketed as the Battle of All Time, that already has units from wildly different settings duking it out, and no top-down marketing or company based restrictions on what you can do with it... but a lot of people still choose to be beholden to just create 'what they imagine the official designers might have done'. To me, that screams of a wasted opportunity.

And yet, VC has created a new planet, introduced themes that were never in the original game, and killed a small number of other sacred cows. You were complaining about VC being opposed to 3 range, but we've actually released a range 3 figure *and even a range 2 figure*. I think VC is treading a very nice line of breaking new ground and honoring what came before. The distinction is that we don't break boundaries for the sake of breaking boundaries. We gave The Varja* range 3 because we felt that a living lightning storm was one of the rare cases where range 3 made thematic sense in the broader context of what range values represent in the game. We gave Boreos range 2 because it made sense as a way to represent Reach on a character that can move arbitrarily high. We would not give range 2 or range 3 to someone holding a really long spear because it would make no sense. There is no spear that is so long it can attack someone 100 hexes higher--not without being so unwieldy as to be useless.


C3V even changed their release model from 1-2 waves a year (in keeping with the tradition set by Hasbro) to 1 booster every couple of months.



*speaking of boundaries, I don't think there was a unique hero in the game before The Varja that had a titular "The" in its name

Lazy Orang September 25th, 2019 02:53 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 2316464)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2316414)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2316411)
I get that sentiment, but that sentiment is pretty old and comes from a pretty "official" place in terms of the designers of the game themselves saying that Marvel and Valhalla stuff wasn't designed to be played together. If you aren't even meant to play all the official product together, seems as if the "Battle of All Time" is marketing more than mantra.

But then, I'd argue that the fact that the official game doesn't exist anymore should be used as an advantage. We now have a game, marketed as the Battle of All Time, that already has units from wildly different settings duking it out, and no top-down marketing or company based restrictions on what you can do with it... but a lot of people still choose to be beholden to just create 'what they imagine the official designers might have done'. To me, that screams of a wasted opportunity.

And yet, VC has created a new planet, introduced themes that were never in the original game, and killed a small number of other sacred cows. You were complaining about VC being opposed to 3 range, but we've actually released a range 3 figure *and even a range 2 figure*. I think VC is treading a very nice line of breaking new ground and honoring what came before. The distinction is that we don't break boundaries for the sake of breaking boundaries. We gave The Varja* range 3 because we felt that a living lightning storm was one of the rare cases where range 3 made thematic sense in the broader context of what range values represent in the game. We gave Boreos range 2 because it made sense as a way to represent Reach on a character that can move arbitrarily high. We would not give range 2 or range 3 to someone holding a really long spear because it would make no sense. There is no spear that is so long it can attack someone 100 hexes higher--not without being so unwieldy as to be useless.

And yet a SoV nominee was shot down for 3 Range 'not being official' - and that's just one of the times you feel fundamentally rigid.
Again, though, even after you set up a Feedback thread, it feels as though it's just more of the head tapping 'don't worry, it's all under control' I was talking about earlier. No criticisms are even being entertained - it's just 'if you only understood went on behind the scenes, you'd understand we're right and you're wrong'. It feels like another smokescreen.

Arch-vile September 25th, 2019 03:01 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
I think it's worth putting the finished books out in the public. C3G does this and it gives everyone a chance to see how units were developed and what debates were had. That would help with some of these transparency issues that VC has. It would also give credit to the contributors - who did the art, who did the playtesting, who did the editing, etc.

dok September 25th, 2019 03:14 PM

Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scytale (Post 2316452)
Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates (Post 2316450)
I actually wish more online communities were organized like "old fashioned" discussion boards (of which Heroscapers is one). On top of my comments regarding facebook and discord, I find reddit, for instance, to be similarly terrible for organized discussion of things.

Agreed. Maybe we're just old.

With the disclaimer that I, too, am old, I also agree. I am theoretically on the discord but it's just too disorganized for me to contribute. The Facebook group is nice for putting out announcements and sharing things, but terrible for sustained workshopping/planning/design.

I am part of the Ashes community, and it's an unending source of frustration to me that our strategy discussions and custom development is done through a Facebook group and a slack channel. It's just worlds less effective. Everything goes down the memory hole.


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