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-   -   The Book of Beyonder (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=34744)

Griffin March 7th, 2011 02:29 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
Because of those concerns, and because I do think that he is broken on lava, I am not sure I feel comfortable passing this guy along..... I am starting to think that the entire design might have to be scrapped and re-envisioned. :reapershrug:

IAmBatman March 7th, 2011 03:31 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SirGalahad (Post 1359252)
Quote:

SUPREME SUMMONING
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one figure within clear sight of Beyonder. You may either place the chosen figure on any empty space adjacent to Beyonder or choose another figure within clear sight of Beyonder and switch the chosen figures. Figures moved by Supreme Summoning never take any leaving engagement attacks and may never be placed on uneven terrain.

MERE PAWNS

After revealing an Order Marker on this card, and instead of taking a turn with Beyonder, you may roll the 20-sided die.
  • If you roll 1-11, choose the figures for any other card you control.
  • If you roll 12-17, choose one Unique Hero within 10 clear sight spaces.
  • If you roll 18 or higher, choose up to two Unique Heroes within 10 clear sight spaces.
Take temporary control of each figure and immediately take a turn with each chosen figure. At the end of the turn, control of each chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before Mere Pawns was used. All Order Markers that were on each chosen figure's card will stay on the card.
For SUPREME SUMMMONING, we will probably need a FAQ addressing how a double-based figure is switched with a single-based figure.

In MERE PAWNS, since I only need one card for all commons I control, is the intent that he can take a turn with every one of the common figures on that card?

10 Moloids? 16 Civilians? 16 Street Thugs? All of my S.H.I.E.L.D. Snipers?

I know he would likely be the only figure in your army, but what about higher-point games?

Good stuff, Sir G ... I think we need to specify that the switched figures should be "same size" (that should do the trick).
In Mere Pawns, do you think we should restrict it to unique figures? That would get around that issue (and what you're suggesting is definitely not the intent here).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 1359432)
Because of those concerns, and because I do think that he is broken on lava, I am not sure I feel comfortable passing this guy along..... I am starting to think that the entire design might have to be scrapped and re-envisioned. :reapershrug:

If you're concerned, we can extend the voting period to allow you to run some tests for him on lava, like I did when I was concerned myself.

A3n March 7th, 2011 03:41 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
I'm not sure if I am comfortable with the lava situation either, so Griffin has my vote also, which ever way he uses it.

Cheers

IAmBatman March 7th, 2011 03:55 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
All right, leaving aside the lava concerns for a moment, do the changes in bold below take care of the other issues?

BEYONDER

ENTITY
EVENT HERO
OMNIPOTENT
INQUISITIVE
MEDIUM 5

LIFE 40
MOVE 5
RANGE 1
ATTACK 7
DEFENSE 6
POINTS: 2500

SUPREME SUMMONING
After moving and before attacking, you may choose one figure within clear sight of Beyonder. You may either place the chosen figure on any empty space adjacent to Beyonder or choose another figure of the same size within clear sight of Beyonder and switch the chosen figures. Figures moved by Supreme Summoning never take any leaving engagement attacks and may never be placed on uneven terrain.

MERE PAWNS

After revealing an Order Marker on this card, and instead of taking a turn with Beyonder, you may roll the 20-sided die.
  • If you roll 1-11, choose the figures for any other unique card you control.
  • If you roll 12-17, choose one Unique Hero within 10 clear sight spaces.
  • If you roll 18 or higher, choose up to two Unique Heroes within 10 clear sight spaces.
Take temporary control of each figure and immediately take a turn with each chosen figure. At the end of the turn, control of each chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before Mere Pawns was used. All Order Markers that were on each chosen figure's card will stay on the card.

FLYING SYMBOL
SUPER STRENGTH SYMBOL

Griffin March 7th, 2011 04:00 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
Yeah, I am not even sure it is an issue of playtesting as much as I am just not happy with the overall quality of the design. There is too much there to poke at.

IAmBatman March 7th, 2011 04:15 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 1359535)
Yeah, I am not even sure it is an issue of playtesting as much as I am just not happy with the overall quality of the design. There is too much there to poke at.

Why are questions with the overall quality coming up on page 16 after it's been through the ERB?
And can you give specifics that you're having trouble with? Blanket negative comments with no suggested changes aren't useful.

Griffin March 7th, 2011 04:20 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 1359560)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 1359535)
Yeah, I am not even sure it is an issue of playtesting as much as I am just not happy with the overall quality of the design. There is too much there to poke at.

Why are questions with the overall quality coming up on page 16 after it's been through the ERB?
And can you give specifics that you're having trouble with? Blanket negative comments with no suggested changes aren't useful.

I echoed Sir G's concerns, my dislike for your corrections, and I agreed with Aldin near the beginning of this design that I didn't want a unit that did soooo exceptionally better on an all lava map.... Also, I have brought this up to you personally several times. Your really helping me form a more concrete opinion here though, so thanks.

IAmBatman March 7th, 2011 04:23 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 1359570)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 1359560)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 1359535)
Yeah, I am not even sure it is an issue of playtesting as much as I am just not happy with the overall quality of the design. There is too much there to poke at.

Why are questions with the overall quality coming up on page 16 after it's been through the ERB?
And can you give specifics that you're having trouble with? Blanket negative comments with no suggested changes aren't useful.

I echoed Sir G's concerns, my dislike for your corrections, and I agreed with Aldin near the beginning of this design that I didn't want a unit that did soooo exceptionally better on an all lava map.... Also, I have brought this up to you personally several times. Your really helping me form a more concrete opinion here though, so thanks.

So you're going to go with the theoryscaping and fear mongering approach rather than actually testing a unit yourself, huh? That explains your new title at least.

Griffin March 7th, 2011 04:28 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
I listened to the concerns of the ERB, and then I wanted some Playter's opinions as well. I got both and I am still not happy with the design. I haven't held a double standard in any way, and I have been open about my concerns with this design for a while now....

tcglkn March 7th, 2011 04:40 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 1359577)
I have been open about my concerns with this design for a while now....

This is true. IIRC correctly Bats shared your opinion of the unit when we were Skyping and you asked me what I thought of that power that negated terrain.

Griffin March 7th, 2011 04:41 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
To be clear on this issue, I am not giving this design a Death No. I am merely re-expressing my doubts about the integrity of this design. I am in no way trying to dismiss this design or those that worked so hard on it to get it where it is.

IAmBatman March 7th, 2011 04:44 PM

Re: The Book of Beyonder - VOTE for Final Editing
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tcglkn (Post 1359589)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffin (Post 1359577)
I have been open about my concerns with this design for a while now....

This is true. IIRC correctly Bats shared your opinion of the unit when we were Skyping and you asked me what I thought of that power that negated terrain.

Which we scrapped.
I guess I'm just having trouble nailing down what exactly the concerns are here. This felt like it came a bit out of nowhere. Maybe there's something in the playtest results that hasn't been commented on specifically or that I'm just not seeing?
Griff, if you could get more specific about your concerns, that would really help us discuss the card and figure out if there are any changes that can be made.
It started out with a concern about lava, which I feel isn't supported by the current playtests, but theoryscaping instead. I asked you to consider testing the card at that point. Then you said that the card as a whole was problematic for you. I'm a little lost here and feel a tad ambushed.
If there are major concerns for you on the card, I certainly want to address them. Hopefully we can go through the card specifically and have a conversation about what's working for people currently and what's not.
I don't see why anyone would be cementing his opinion right now.
I do apologize if I was disrespectful in expressing my frustrations with this response, though.


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