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-   -   Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31300)

JC McMinis July 25th, 2020 12:01 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I like 2 as well

JC McMinis July 29th, 2020 06:45 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Updated card with the new wording on Master Assassin and Visceral Movement

http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/8bd...gw94t1zqzg.jpg

SirGalahad July 29th, 2020 07:46 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Wording looks good.

I may be just getting old, but "ASSASSIN" in the left box seems smaller than the other attributes.

JC McMinis July 29th, 2020 10:50 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
it's just the way the card editor does that word. It's the same size on our card for Ezio from Assassin's Creed

Confred August 1st, 2020 12:00 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Stray thought

MASTER ASSASSIN
After attacking a figure, John Wick may attack two additional times. He may only change his targets if the figure is destroyed.

Taeblewalker August 1st, 2020 02:45 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Confred (Post 2409186)
Stray thought

MASTER ASSASSIN
After attacking a figure, John Wick may attack two additional times. He may only change his targets if the figure is destroyed.

Looks good!

JC McMinis August 1st, 2020 09:37 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taeblewalker (Post 2409242)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Confred (Post 2409186)
Stray thought

MASTER ASSASSIN
After attacking a figure, John Wick may attack two additional times. He may only change his targets if the figure is destroyed.

Looks good!

I agree

Confred August 2nd, 2020 08:57 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Thanks, "if possible" sat with me wrong. and I had a kind of ah-ha! moment.

So I'll update the proxy with new wording, upload to Tabletop Simulator and test the changes by Friday, August 7.

I encourage others to playtest also during this week. We'll perhaps wrap this design up by this weekend.

Edit:

MASTER ASSASSIN
When John Wick attacks a figure, he may attack two additional times. He may only change targets if the figure is destroyed. John Wick can't attack destructible objects this way.

Edit commentary: I like the destructible object stipulation because you don't assassinate doors, but I'm not comfortable with the phrase "this way"

Dysole August 3rd, 2020 12:10 AM

FYI
 
I'm at a point where I might have an idea but not sure if there's a miniature to support it. I am in a place where I could devote some time to making it happen. If Sir Galahad would rather, I can easily wait until later.

As a note, I see that we were reconsidering visceral and then decided against it. Visceral is specifically related to the viscera or internal organs. So visceral movement would have something related to his internal organs. I am completely unfamiliar with anything beyond the VERY basics of this character so I have no idea if that is actually on theme. What exactly does this represent character wise?

Regarding Master Assassin,I'm not sure if "changing targets" is a defined Scape phrase even though we know what it means whereas "if possible" means exactly what it says. I also hope you're aware that your verbiage means if he is engaged to a Deathreaver and another figure and attacks the rat who scatters away after surviving the attack, he can't attack the figure he's engaged to now. I think this verbiage flows better.

Quote:

MASTER ASSASSIN

When John Wick attacks a figure, he can attack that figure up to two additional times.
Sure it doesn't allow him to change targets if he kills it on the first hit, but I don't think that's a bad thing given the higher power level. If you want the multi attack, probably want.

Quote:

MASTER ASSASSIN
When John Wick attacks a figure, he can attack up to two additional times. When John Wick attacks a figure, he may not attack an additional figure this turn until that figure is destroyed.
I would change Visceral Movement to

Quote:

VISCERAL MOVEMENT

John Wick may attack at any point before, during, or after moving.
Honestly could just roll this power into Master Assassin (put it before the other stuff) and call it good, sidestepping the whole Visceral Movement issue.

I would change Boogeyman to

Quote:

BOOGEYMAN
John Wick can move through all small and medium figures and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. If John Wick moves through a figure, he may stop his movement and roll 2 additional dice when attacking that figure.
If you don't want him to have Phantom Walk take out the LEA stuff.

Human Shield is fine as is wording wise with my only question being whether it's more consistent in Scape to specifically call out a defense die or just say "add a die to his roll".

He's pretty good offensively, but unless you give him phantom walk, he needs a screen or he dies way too fast to any sustained fire.

~Dysole, informationally

SirGalahad August 3rd, 2020 01:42 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Here was my reasoning for leaving Visceral

Definition of visceral
1: felt in or as if in the internal organs of the body : DEEP
a visceral conviction
2: not intellectual : INSTINCTIVE, UNREASONING
visceral drives
3: dealing with crude or elemental emotions : EARTHY
a visceral novel
4: of, relating to, or located on or among the viscera : SPLANCHNIC
visceral organs

OK with the wording change though. Definitely cleaner.

MASTER ASSASSIN
When John Wick attacks an opponent's figure, he can attack up to two additional times. When John Wick attacks a figure, he , but may not attack an additional figure this turn until the defending figure is destroyed.

I'd be on board with the change to BOOGEYMAN, but change "stop" to "end" his movement.

Dysole August 3rd, 2020 11:04 AM

Connotations
 
Sure, sure, sure.

But when I see visceral movement, I don't think instinctive. I think of something more squishy and tangible like one of the aliens from Parasyte. Instinctive movement makes me think of something more reflexive which I assume is more on brand. It'd be like saying Sharwin has a power called Secret Backtalk instead of Arcane Riposte. While they're synonyms you get a different image from both of those phrases.

~Dysole, verbally

Confred August 4th, 2020 11:10 PM

Re: FYI
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2409517)
I'm at a point where I might have an idea but not sure if there's a miniature to support it. I am in a place where I could devote some time to making it happen. If Sir Galahad would rather, I can easily wait until later.

As a note, I see that we were reconsidering visceral and then decided against it. Visceral is specifically related to the viscera or internal organs. So visceral movement would have something related to his internal organs. I am completely unfamiliar with anything beyond the VERY basics of this character so I have no idea if that is actually on theme. What exactly does this represent character wise?

Regarding Master Assassin,I'm not sure if "changing targets" is a defined Scape phrase even though we know what it means whereas "if possible" means exactly what it says. I also hope you're aware that your verbiage means if he is engaged to a Deathreaver and another figure and attacks the rat who scatters away after surviving the attack, he can't attack the figure he's engaged to now. I think this verbiage flows better.

Quote:

MASTER ASSASSIN

When John Wick attacks a figure, he can attack that figure up to two additional times.
Sure it doesn't allow him to change targets if he kills it on the first hit, but I don't think that's a bad thing given the higher power level. If you want the multi attack, probably want.

Quote:

MASTER ASSASSIN
When John Wick attacks a figure, he can attack up to two additional times. When John Wick attacks a figure, he may not attack an additional figure this turn until that figure is destroyed.
I would change Visceral Movement to

Quote:

VISCERAL MOVEMENT

John Wick may attack at any point before, during, or after moving.
Honestly could just roll this power into Master Assassin (put it before the other stuff) and call it good, sidestepping the whole Visceral Movement issue.

I would change Boogeyman to

Quote:

BOOGEYMAN
John Wick can move through all small and medium figures and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. If John Wick moves through a figure, he may stop his movement and roll 2 additional dice when attacking that figure.
If you don't want him to have Phantom Walk take out the LEA stuff.

Human Shield is fine as is wording wise with my only question being whether it's more consistent in Scape to specifically call out a defense die or just say "add a die to his roll".

He's pretty good offensively, but unless you give him phantom walk, he needs a screen or he dies way too fast to any sustained fire.

~Dysole, informationally

It's on theme for John Wick to get surrounded and fight his way out.

We took Visceral Movement out of Master Assassin to better study it. I wouldn't be opposed to adding it back.

Confred August 5th, 2020 08:30 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
"Visceral Movement" was originally a pun placeholder name.
His actions are so well practiced and precise they border superhuman muscle memory, gut - visceral.
His actions also spread guts everywhere and deal with attacking, visceral

Confred August 14th, 2020 11:18 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Today is Friday, so I'll playtest tonight.

I've been thinking about Master Assassin and think Triple Attack should probably be the solution. It would reduce card complexity and not break theme. John Wick switches his targets depending on situation. I like the stick and move of it.

But I'll play tonight with Master Assassin and follow up my thoughts.

I'll also get back to member write ups above

Confred August 19th, 2020 12:03 AM

Re: FYI
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2409517)
Regarding Master Assassin,I'm not sure if "changing targets" is a defined Scape phrase even though we know what it means whereas "if possible" means exactly what it says.


MASTER ASSASSIN

When John Wick attacks a figure, he may attack two additional times. He may only choose different targets if the figure is destroyed. John Wick can't attack destructible objects this way.

Taeblewalker August 19th, 2020 12:09 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Sounds good.

Dysole August 19th, 2020 12:24 AM

Thought
 
What about?

Quote:

MASTER ASSASSIN

When John Wick attacks, he may attack up to 2 additional times. If the figure targeted by the previous attack is not destroyed, he must target that figure for an attack, if possible. John Wick may not use Master Assassin on destructible objects.
I'm kinda stealing wording from the Nakita Agents Smoke Powder (the only power I know for sure references targeting), Tactical Switch, and Life Drain.

~Dysole, spelling it out more because again while we all know what is meant she's not actually sure if "changing targets" is a defined Scape term


EDIT: Actually might have found a different power to crib off of.

Quote:

MASTER ASSASSIN

When John Wick attacks, he may attack up to 2 additional times. He must target the same figure with each attack unless that figure is destroyed. John Wick may not use Master Assassin on destructible objects.
Swapping out Smoke Powder and Tactical Switch wording for some of the wording used from Saber Storm

Confred August 19th, 2020 12:55 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Played a game just now against a random Army, Marro Cavalry: All Large figures, so John Wick's anti-Medium powers didn't come into play. But it didn't matter because he annihilated 495 points without getting touched.

The locking on targets is needlessly complicated and doesn't solve the issue with this figure.

If I may return to my first draft suggestion:
Quote:

MASTER ASSASSIN
After attacking, John Wick may attack one additional time for each opponent's figure who is adjacent to him.
Is TACTICAL MOVEMENT used anywhere else? We could use that in replace of VISCERAL MOVEMENT

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...n_wickv7_6.png

Dysole August 19th, 2020 01:28 AM

Approval
 
I like both of those powers. Tactical Movement is not moved anywhere else and I feel it is very on theme.

~Dysole, updatingly

JC McMinis August 19th, 2020 09:41 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I like where this has gone. Here is the updated car with the new wording.

http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9f4...gw94t1zqzg.jpg

If everyone is in agreement I think it is time to vote. If so he has my :thumbsup:

Tornado August 19th, 2020 10:13 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I would reorder the powers with Boogeyman first, then Tactical Movement, then Master Assassin and Human Shield.

Then it goes in order of your turn with movement powers first, then attack, then defense.

Dysole August 19th, 2020 11:14 PM

Wording
 
I do think Tactical Movement should be

John Wick may attack before, after, or at any point during his movement.

There's not really a good scape analog but it's what is used in C3G and I think it's a concise wording.

We want him to have to stop if he uses Boogeyman right?

~Dysole, covering bases

~

Taeblewalker August 19th, 2020 11:16 PM

Re: Wording
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2412431)
I do think Tactical Movement should be

John Wick may attack before, after, or at any point during his movement.

There's not really a good scape analog but it's what is used in C3G and I think it's a concise wording.

We want him to have to stop if he uses Boogeyman right?

~Dysole, covering bases

~

That depends; do we want another Kumiko?

Porkins August 22nd, 2020 02:47 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Currently playing a big game including Dalinar and Aslan. Cool stuff guys!

Taeblewalker August 22nd, 2020 02:53 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Porkins (Post 2412892)
Currently playing a big game including Dalinar and Aslan. Cool stuff guys!

Thanks! I don't believe I worked on those two units, but I am very proud of the work I have done with HoF.

Confred August 22nd, 2020 10:58 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2412421)
I would reorder the powers with Boogeyman first, then Tactical Movement, then Master Assassin and Human Shield.

Then it goes in order of your turn with movement powers first, then attack, then defense.

Movement powers, flying, disengage etc are last. Resurrection powers etc are laster..

So I believe order is actually correct

Confred August 22nd, 2020 10:59 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JC McMinis (Post 2412413)
I like where this has gone. Here is the updated car with the new wording.

http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9f4...gw94t1zqzg.jpg

If everyone is in agreement I think it is time to vote. If so he has my :thumbsup:

Triple attack at range is what had his points so high. With new version will have to test again for points

Confred August 22nd, 2020 11:02 AM

Re: Wording
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2412431)
I do think Tactical Movement should be

John Wick may attack before, after, or at any point during his movement.

There's not really a good scape analog but it's what is used in C3G and I think it's a concise wording.

We want him to have to stop if he uses Boogeyman right?

~Dysole, covering bases

~

I've never liked that C3G wording, doesn't feel correct particularly "during" it's confusing. While our version here clears up the confusion.

Yes Boogeyman stops abuse

Confred August 22nd, 2020 11:03 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Porkins (Post 2412892)
Currently playing a big game including Dalinar and Aslan. Cool stuff guys!

Awesome, battle report after!

Dysole August 22nd, 2020 12:03 PM

Why Are You My Clarity?
 
There's two ways to read the wording you have. John Wick can stop once, attack, and keep moving or he can stop as many times as he has attacks and keep moving after that. That's why the during language helps with that clarity.

~Dysole, not sure what isn't clear about the C3G wording

Confred August 22nd, 2020 07:25 PM

Re: Why Are You My Clarity?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2412917)
There's two ways to read the wording you have. John Wick can stop once, attack, and keep moving or he can stop as many times as he has attacks and keep moving after that. That's why the during language helps with that clarity.

~Dysole, not sure what isn't clear about the C3G wording

I didn't like "during" but with researching, Kumiko uses such wording. So I'm okay with the adjustment.

Otherwise:
Instead of moving and attacking normally, John Wick may attack before moving and continue moving after each of his attacks.

Taeblewalker August 22nd, 2020 07:35 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
That sounds good to me.

Confred August 23rd, 2020 12:52 AM

Re: Why Are You My Clarity?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Confred (Post 2412962)
Instead of moving and attacking normally, John Wick may attack before moving and continue moving after each of his attacks.

This alternate wording had an unintentional function change, but it is an interesting one. It requires attacking first to unlock the special movement. This could be another way to dial power level and points down.

Ps: I'm fine with this being a more expensive figure since he's one man army

Confred August 23rd, 2020 12:57 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Confred (Post 2412350)
If I may return to my first draft suggestion:
Quote:

MASTER ASSASSIN
After attacking, John Wick may attack one additional time for each opponent's figure who is adjacent to him.

If his number of attacks vary and his movement varies and when he attacks varies, this version could have tracking issues

Alternate:
After attacking a figure that isn't a destructible object, if John Wick is engaged he may attack two additional times.

Confred August 24th, 2020 11:49 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Confred (Post 2412995)
Alternate:
After attacking a figure that isn't a destructible object, if John Wick is engaged he may attack two additional times.

MASTER ASSASSIN
After attacking, if John Wick is engaged, he may continue attacking to a maximum of two additional times.

While we're editing.. Let's fold Tactical Movement into Boogeyman:

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit..._wickv7_73.png

MASTER ASSASSIN
After attacking, if John Wick is engaged, he may continue attacking to a maximum of two additional times.

BOOGEYMAN
John Wick may attack before, during, and after moving. He may move through medium figures during this movement. If he does, he may end his movement to add 2 additional attack dice on his next attack against a figure he moved through.

HUMAN SHIELD
When rolling defense dice against a nonadjacent normal attack, if John Wick is adjacent to an opponent's medium figure, add an additional defense die to his roll. All excess shields count as unblockable hits on the adjacent figure.

~~~
It has been a process, but I think this one is really shaping up.

Confred August 27th, 2020 11:36 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Playtested against another random army. This time Monks and Ninjas.
John Wick was defeated, but not before taking out 200 Points worth of figures.

Master Assassin: Changes good!
Only shooting once at range adds a menacing/harassing factor while not being OP (demoralizing) - this also encourages John Wick to close in and activate his other powers

Boogeyman: Changes good!
The bonus attack takes off an edge, counteracts the drawback of having to close in. Being able to maximize position options is useful and flavorful

Human Shield: Cool
While this power didn't come into play this game, it received multiple compliments from the Facebook feed; it's different; and it doesn't seem OP.

Points
With the changes, John Wick is without a doubt less than 245 Points. I'm thinking 180-210 Points.

Tornado August 28th, 2020 07:37 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Nice

Confred August 30th, 2020 04:19 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I'm thinking 200 Points, but make it 195 because he wants to get even.

JC McMinis August 30th, 2020 09:46 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Sorry about the slow posting. I'm working 6 days a week right now, and trying to organize a new 5e D&D campaign on top of keeping up with daily neccesities of life. Anyway here is how we are looking with Mr. Wick right now.

http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/0bd...gw94t1zqzg.jpg

Confred August 30th, 2020 11:52 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Looks good. The J in John however is bolded in his second power.

Still needs testing at his points level, but I feel we're really close

Dysole August 30th, 2020 11:57 PM

Thoughts and Things
 
My theoryscape says that's probably the correct point total.

~Dysole, who hasn't played any games with him but figures Raelin/Rat pod is probably a good call and possibly a knight build with Finn/Thorgrim to beef him up before he becomes a one man army

Taeblewalker August 31st, 2020 12:11 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I have to agree with @Dysole .

Confred August 31st, 2020 10:47 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Regarding Boogeyman wording, "add 2 ... on"
Should it instead be "add 2 additional attack dice to his next ..." ?

Add on
Add to

Dysole August 31st, 2020 01:42 PM

Mebbe
 
Gut call says add to but I can check other scape cards for consistency later.

~Dysole, informationally

JC McMinis September 2nd, 2020 10:13 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Just a wucik rewording idea.

BOOGEYMAN
John Wick may attack before, during, and after moving. He may move through medium figures during this movement. After moving though a figure, John Wick may end his movement and attack the figure he moved through. When attacking a figure he moved through add 2 dice to his attack.

This new wording on adding the dice to the attack is how we did it on Tanis Half-Elven

Dysole September 2nd, 2020 10:37 PM

Grammar
 
There should be a comma after through if that's the wording you're going to use. Even if it's HoF precedent I'm not 100% sure if it's Scape precedent. I'd need to check a couple of examples.

~Dysole, noting that Scape wording isn't exactly consistent but if we have an example to riff off of I'd rather use that

Confred September 4th, 2020 02:03 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
BOOGEYMAN
John Wick may attack before, during, and after moving. He may move through medium figures during this movement. If he does, he may end his movement to add 2 additional attack dice on his next attack against a figure he moved through.

v

BOOGEYMAN
John Wick may attack before, during, and after moving. He may move through medium figures during this movement. After moving though a figure, John Wick may end his movement and attack the figure he moved through. When attacking a figure he moved through add 2 dice to his attack.

I'm ok with this change
This implies a bonus attack
Minor but changes scope; want to affect only last moved through figure

BOOGEYMAN
John Wick may attack before, during, and after moving. He may move through medium figures during this movement. After moving though a figure, John Wick may end his movement to add 2 additional attack dice to his next attack against that figure.

BOOGEYMAN alt
John Wick may attack before, during, and after moving. He may move through medium figures during this movement. After moving though a figure, John Wick may end his movement to add 2 additional attack dice to his next attack against that figure this turn.

JC McMinis September 9th, 2020 08:21 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I think the Boogeyman alt wording works best. I personally would not move through a figure unless I was going to attack it and also it does not make sense for him to get the bonus on a different turn than the one he move through them on


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