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-   -   Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=31300)

Confred April 8th, 2021 12:27 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I'm up to episode 8 or so and the Hidden is getting introduced in the source. I look forward to seeing how it goes so I can then translate and cross reference what we already have

Confred April 10th, 2021 06:05 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Halfway through Episode 8 and it has been a showcase of her powers.

The Hidden should have an expanded name, Guided by the Hidden, Commune with the Hidden, etc something extended

So far we've seen her reactively strangle her attacker with vines and evoked surrounding trees to each attack with growing vines.

I like the idea of choice between modes - Whirlwind Assault and +3 Attack wounds self

She has implied healing powers, but none real shown since

She has budding leadership abilities and perhaps should have some cheerleader effect for Fey/Ullar

Confred April 10th, 2021 11:01 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Here's my take:
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...e_original.png

They call the sword many things. Sword of Power, Feysword of Power, Devil's Tooth, Sword of the First King, Sword of the First Queen, Sword of the First Fey Queen. Any are fine, but I like Devil's Tooth because the cursed side of things, DEVIL'S TOOTH, CURSED SWORD OF POWER.

I tried a version of Calling Out to the Hidden that worked on both offense and defense, but ultimately cut the fat of it. As mentioned earlier, she doesn't "snare" figures in season 1 so that aspect was removed. Also for cleanliness it was made into a special attack. Added size restrictions because why not, including large because horses.

There was only one small scene dealing with healing, so cut that.

Considered FEY QUEEN as a cheerleader power, but she's the Lady in the Lake! And that first TPK she deals she totally water tunnels around

Determined is fine for personality, perhaps something else could be used but I'm fine with it.

Sorcerer, eh she's not so magically. Wolf Blood Witch she's called, but witch or even warwitch isn't right either. Honestly? Champion feels appropriate. She's mostly Swordmaiden with some druid powers.

Thoughts?

Taeblewalker April 10th, 2021 11:47 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Devil's Tooth should say "choose either" instead of "choose one." My only problem with it is that she is so easily killed with 4 life and 3 defense that you are essentially throwing her away, at 130 points, when you use the power, especially if you use it more than once.

I like the special attack, but the range should be just plain "3" as I read it, or "3+special" instead of "3 special" if you want it to change dependent on circumstances of the targeted figure(s). Also, the way it's written there is no line of sight needed. If that's intentional, I see no problem with it.

Shiftrex April 11th, 2021 02:31 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
At first glance she looks like a hero that should be a bonding target but... her potential to wreak havoc on a large portion of an army is immense given how prevelant tree and bush terrain is. I don't know that i'd go down from 130 with this iteration.

Definitely a high ceiling and the 4 life is keeping it in check. Also, changing it from whirlwind attack to a special attack that hits all adjacent makes the power swingy. She might destroy everything with max skulls or wiff and miss everyone. I'm unsure how often +3 to attack will be used, I'd see that come into play more if she were a bonding hero I think but right now it is just situational.

Water tunnel is a good power, very easy to use and should be applicable on the majority of maps. I think at worst, if she is on a map with no bush/tree/water then she is likely to be used as an AoE special attacker. Reminds me of Viceron but with a different focus. It will be risky to use her given the investment of 130 points on 4 (3) life once you activate any of her powers. Best case scenario, access to a free movement power and the ability to decimate the most prominent figures in the game if they are on the same map as her (bush and tree terrain will be hard to get 3 spaces away from.

130 might be correct here just due to the ability to nuke an army.

Confred April 11th, 2021 09:57 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Nuke an army is right, thematic too
Her fragility helps not overextend her. Share some of those order markers with Gwain and Arthur then reveal for once the X isn't on her. Tunnel in to make up for lost ground.

" Choose one: " Indeed felt wrong. I've been making customs for Magic mistakenly slipped some of its phrasing in

Confred April 16th, 2021 09:19 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Thoughts on versions, powers?

I may put this up on Steam/Tabletop Simulator for playtesting

Shiftrex April 16th, 2021 09:47 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I like the latest version, left box stats seem good to me. Really curious to see how she does as a stand alone.

Confred April 16th, 2021 11:53 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiftrex (Post 2459553)
I like the latest version, left box stats seem good to me. Really curious to see how she does as a stand alone.

Playtest link for Tabletop Simulator users
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=2459457110

Taeblewalker April 17th, 2021 12:33 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taeblewalker (Post 2458735)
Devil's Tooth should say "choose either" instead of "choose one." My only problem with it is that she is so easily killed with 4 life and 3 defense that you are essentially throwing her away, at 130 points, when you use the power, especially if you use it more than once.

I like the special attack, but the range should be just plain "3" as I read it, or "3+special" instead of "3 special" if you want it to change dependent on circumstances of the targeted figure(s). Also, the way it's written there is no line of sight needed. If that's intentional, I see no problem with it.

Bumping this post. I really think that these changes should be made, especially adding in the "plus" to 3 Special. If I'm outvoted, se be it. I just think the changes would make the unit sound more official.

Dysole April 17th, 2021 12:42 AM

Standard Wording
 
For an effect like that it's usually

Range Special

I need to look at everything a bit more in depth and I'll do that soon.

~Dysole, informationally

Confred April 17th, 2021 01:28 AM

Re: Standard Wording
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2459744)
For an effect like that it's usually

Range Special

I need to look at everything a bit more in depth and I'll do that soon.

~Dysole, informationally

Yeah on the version I posted to Steam has Ranged Special (ala Mimring)

DEVIL'S TOOTH, CURSED SWORD OF POWER
When attacking an adjacent figure with a normal attack, Nimue may have the Sword of Power inflict her with a wound. If she does, choose either:
  • Any or all figures are also affected by the attack. They each roll defense dice separately.
  • Add 3 attack dice to the attack.

CALL OUT TO THE HIDDEN SPECIAL ATTACK
Range Special. Attack 2.
Choose any or all figures within 3 spaces who are adjacent to an Evergreen Tree or Jungle Piece to be affected by this attack. Small, medium, and large figures roll 3 fewer defense dice. They each roll defense dice separately.

WATER TUNNEL
If Nimue ends her normal movement on a water space, you may immediately place her on an empty, same-level water space within 5 spaces. If Nimue is engaged when she starts her Water TunneI, she will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Taeblewalker April 17th, 2021 02:50 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
The Blue Wyrmling says "Range 4 + Special." Not sure if that's the proper precedent.

Confred April 17th, 2021 09:03 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taeblewalker (Post 2459748)
The Blue Wyrmling says "Range 4 + Special." Not sure if that's the proper precedent.

I agree. Good catch

Dysole April 17th, 2021 09:42 AM

Reasoning
 
You're not targeting a figure. It's all figures around you within X spaces like the SoV unit Viceron the Blood Knight. If Nimue was choosing a figure like Blue or Sharwin it'd be 3+special but since she hits everyone it's Range Special.

~Dysole, clarifyingly

Confred April 18th, 2021 12:13 AM

Re: Reasoning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2459752)
You're not targeting a figure. It's all figures around you within X spaces like the SoV unit Viceron the Blood Knight. If Nimue was choosing a figure like Blue or Sharwin it'd be 3+special but since she hits everyone it's Range Special.

~Dysole, clarifyingly

:up:

Confred April 22nd, 2021 10:55 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
DEVIL'S TOOTH, CURSED SWORD OF POWER
When attacking an adjacent figure with a normal attack, Nimue may have the Sword of Power inflict her with a wound. If she does, choose either:
Any or all adjacent figures are also affected by the attack. They each roll defense dice separately.
Add 3 attack dice to the attack.

Taeblewalker April 22nd, 2021 11:11 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Looks good.

Dysole April 23rd, 2021 11:21 AM

Necessary?
 
The first clause states it's an adjacent attack. Because she gets to choose who is affected, what purpose is the second adjacent serving?

~Dysole, trying to sort things out

Confred April 24th, 2021 12:53 AM

Re: Necessary?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2460762)
The first clause states it's an adjacent attack. Because she gets to choose who is affected, what purpose is the second adjacent serving?

~Dysole, trying to sort things out

To reduce ambiguity. I interpreted it the same as you, but testers have noted it could be viewed as allowing her to target everything even things at range.

Playtested Nimue tonight on Tabletop Simulator. In her current form, she feels closer to 150 Points.

Defense 3
We don't want an expensive unit eating arrows before it gets to do anything. Functionally, I agree with 3. But from a simulation perspective, 3 outperformed what I witnessed in the source. Perhaps Nimue should be Defense 2

Attack 5
While she does beat ass in source, even without summoning extra sword power, 5 felt too good, too skilled. perhaps Nimue should be Attack 4 but I'm fine with Attack 5, because she does splatterize.

CALL OUT TO THE HIDDEN SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 3: At times I wanted it to have a greater reach of 4.
Defense Negation: This owned so hard. It was supposed to represent the choking strangling aspect of the vines. But the ratio feels off. Maybe Range 4, Attack 1. Defense -1.
Rolling attack dice once: Rolling attack dice only once saves time. And it could be argued that the trees act in unison and the deadly force is applied evenly, but something didn't feel quite right. Perhaps attack dice should be rolled for each unit.
Trees: Currently this hits all units adjacent to one tree. Perhaps this ratio can be toggled somehow. Instead of 6:1, make perhaps 3:1 or 2:1 or even 1:1. Cap it somehow. maybe answer is trees and pieces add a number of dice each and then those can be distributed among figures up to a max rolled for a single unit. Like a Queglix Gun Special Attack.

WATER TUNNEL
While this power wasn't activated in my play, the option was available and felt good.

Points 130
As written, Nimue performs at 150. If we reduce her Defense and Special Attack damage, this will certainly affect her Points total.

Thoughts? How were your plays?

Confred April 24th, 2021 04:30 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
CALL OUT TO THE HIDDEN
Instead of attacking, choose any or all Evergreen Trees and Jungle Pieces within 3 spaces of Nimue. For each, choose a figure within 2 spaces of that object. One at a time, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 17 or higher, inflict 2 wounds to the figure. If the figure is small, medium, or large, add 3 to your roll.

Shiftrex April 25th, 2021 06:20 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
That looks clean, and like a lot of fun. Wording feels concise and direct. This plays like a control the field type of character that makes you cautious about placement and approaches. On a well designed map, no issues. The design sparked intrigue when I've showed it to friends.

Water tunnel is fun, but I have not felt a need to activate it when putting her on the board yet.

Dysole April 26th, 2021 12:40 AM

FYI
 
I feel like it would be better as either just calling out 17+ for huge through bullet points or saying that subtract 3 from your dice roll if the figure is huge. I think she should be base attack of 4. If she is not going to have a healing ability she needs to have Defense of 3 or she will crumple so hard. (Even as is Life 4/Defense 3 will fall really fast to sustained fire and she will absolutely be a target)

~Dysole, still in theoryscaping but curious what she's been played with and against

Confred April 26th, 2021 08:31 AM

Re: FYI
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dysole (Post 2461193)
If she is not going to have a healing ability she needs to have Defense of 3 or she will crumple so hard. (Even as is Life 4/Defense 3 will fall really fast to sustained fire and she will absolutely be a target)

~Dysole, still in theoryscaping but curious what she's been played with and against

In source she crumples often and depends on the other figures in her army protecting/reviving her

Theoryscaping, Arthur would protect surrounding friendlies, Gwain would attack boost surrounding friendlies/Fey, Fey squads would fodder, a unique Fey squad would enrage, common fey hero who heals

Edit: I'm thinking we might not even need size restrictions on Call

JC McMinis April 26th, 2021 11:00 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I like where this is going. Sorry haven't piped in but just got back from vacation.

Confred April 30th, 2021 07:18 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
CALL OUT TO THE HIDDEN
Instead of attacking, choose any or all Evergreen Trees and Jungle Pieces within 4 spaces of Nimue. For each, choose a figure within 1 space of that object. One at a time, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 14 or higher, inflict 2 wounds to the figure.

Shiftrex April 30th, 2021 08:52 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
oooh, two wounds is pretty gnarly. Definitely is relevant against heroes and will dictate that you approach carefully. 14 or higher = 30% to get it which is pretty relevant and will be helpful in thinning out squad figures. Not sure it really needs to be 2 wounds but I'm not opposed to it either, has a bit of a fear factor to it.

Taeblewalker April 30th, 2021 09:34 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I like it. It is powerful on the right map, so I believe pricing the unit would be based on a tree-laden map. On other maps, you won't draft this unit.

Confred May 2nd, 2021 12:42 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
While it may take word capital, height limits of a tree's attack range needs to be defined.

Confred May 6th, 2021 08:22 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
CALL OUT TO THE HIDDEN (v1.64)
Instead of attacking, choose any or all Evergreen Trees and Jungle Pieces within 4 spaces of Nimue. For each, choose an opponent's figure within 1 space of that object whose base is no more than 5 levels above or below that object's base. One at a time, roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of 14 or higher, inflict 2 wounds to the figure.

Taeblewalker May 6th, 2021 08:44 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Not bad!

Shiftrex May 6th, 2021 09:36 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Requires some close reading but I like what it accomplishes. I think the complexity is on par with say... a marvel figure which is right where I like pop-culture/video game/fiction representation for a custom. I'm on board with that, still appreciate it doing 2 wounds, that's a lot of awesome power to be packing.

JC McMinis May 9th, 2021 02:18 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Very nice. I like it.

Dysole May 9th, 2021 02:34 PM

I'm Happy With It
 
Yeah I have no wording complaints. It's potentially really strong on the right maps but that sounds like that's something that it should be.

~Dysole, adding to the chorus

JC McMinis May 11th, 2021 10:09 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
So this is where we are at

https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/14...glvdwwswzg.jpg

Shiftrex May 12th, 2021 01:04 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Looking good here!

Confred May 12th, 2021 10:46 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JC McMinis (Post 2463894)

Defense 2?

Taeblewalker May 12th, 2021 11:05 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
2 might be low for a 130 point figure, especially at 4 Life.

Shiftrex May 12th, 2021 11:17 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
I would echo that sentiment, 2 defense is quite whiffable on an investment like that. Not thoroughly opposed, just feeling rather fragile at 2 D.

Confred May 12th, 2021 11:29 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiftrex (Post 2464027)
I would echo that sentiment, 2 defense is quite whiffable on an investment like that. Not thoroughly opposed, just feeling rather fragile at 2 D.

She is fragile in source. Multiple episodes she gets taken out fairly easily

I'd rather Points drop than Defense raise

Shiftrex May 13th, 2021 12:06 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
No argument from me then, if she comes off as that fragile in source then that definitely makes sense. We have a really cool glass canon on our hands.

SirGalahad May 13th, 2021 03:14 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
For the first power, the order of what happens matters. As it reads, she would be taking the wound before using the sword's power, which doesn't make sense.

Confred May 14th, 2021 03:57 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SirGalahad (Post 2464045)
For the first power, the order of what happens matters. As it reads, she would be taking the wound before using the sword's power, which doesn't make sense.

When the sword is used to its potential it changes the appearance of the user before their action, which is the wound I imagined. But No problem wording it to come after.

Confred May 16th, 2021 10:41 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
DEVIL'S TOOTH, CURSED SWORD OF POWER v1.7
When attacking an adjacent figure with a normal attack, Nimue may have the Sword of Power enhance the attack by choosing one or both below. After the attack, the Cursed Sword of Power inflicts her with a wound for each mode chosen:
Any or all adjacent figures are also affected by the attack. They each roll defense dice separately.
Add 3 attack dice to the attack.

(Attack 5 > Attack 4)

Confred May 20th, 2021 03:09 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ing_148031.png

Taeblewalker May 20th, 2021 04:11 AM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
Better stats IMO.

Shiftrex May 20th, 2021 12:53 PM

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 
That looks like a good version to me.

Dysole May 20th, 2021 04:12 PM

Glass cannon
 
4 life and 2 defense with no ranged attack will fall really fast to any kind of sustained fire.

~Dysole, informationally


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