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Soundwarp SG-1 August 8th, 2018 02:57 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2208861)
They are considered optional, like Knockback, so any tournament could just say they're not allowed.

Oh, I missed that bit. The text itself doesn't make it clear they're optional if you miss the header in the book, which is pretty easy to miss when the whole first post is otherwise useless and you're just scrolling past it as fast as possible. It might be worth adding in a 'mandatory' and 'optional' divide in the list of rules at the index, easier to keep track of them that way.

If they're an optional rule, then I really don't care what they do. They won't be used at tourneys and shouldn't effect playtesting or point costs for anyone outside of people like Lady Blackhawk, so they're not really under CRB jurisdiction. Do as y'all will.

Scapemage August 8th, 2018 04:41 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
This is a great time to have the idea that we compile a complete C3G rulebook in one place. That one is a large project, though.


EDIT: We have a thread for that.

IAmBatman August 8th, 2018 04:48 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Once we feel that rulebook is a bit more "complete" we should see who wants to go in on a mass printing to save some money. :-)

Lazy Orang August 8th, 2018 05:32 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2208927)
Once we feel that rulebook is a bit more "complete" we should see who wants to go in on a mass printing to save some money. :-)

Someday (not any time soon, mind) I'm going to propose a set of Partial Cover optional rules - not any more necessary than Knockback, just there to provide depth and realism to those who wish to use 'em. :)

Scapemage August 8th, 2018 05:37 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
I *might* be interested sometime down the line in doing layout design for a full-on rulebook including everything. It would be a huge portfolio piece for me.

Yodaking August 8th, 2018 06:23 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2208942)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2208927)
Once we feel that rulebook is a bit more "complete" we should see who wants to go in on a mass printing to save some money. :-)

Someday (not any time soon, mind) I'm going to propose a set of Partial Cover optional rules - not any more necessary than Knockback, just there to provide depth and realism to those who wish to use 'em. :)


I'd like to see the desks and file cabinets I've been talking about for the office building Bats is working on provide partial cover. The idea of moving around an office building while engaging in a firefight just lends itself to people ducking and crouching here and there looking for some cover. At the very least their legs are harder to hit and damage when shooting through desks and servers.

Tornado August 8th, 2018 06:31 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
That would be amazing Scape. It would be really real. :)
The last time we edited the rulebook for our RPG to make it in the realm of possibility for release, my friend put into pdf and the next time we played, he had it on his i-pad. Now I have had it on my PC forever but it was different on the i-pad, the way it looked, the ease of use. That was when it became really real. :)





Quote:

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1 (Post 2208874)
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2208861)
They are considered optional, like Knockback, so any tournament could just say they're not allowed.

Oh, I missed that bit. The text itself doesn't make it clear they're optional if you miss the header in the book, which is pretty easy to miss when the whole first post is otherwise useless and you're just scrolling past it as fast as possible. It might be worth adding in a 'mandatory' and 'optional' divide in the list of rules at the index, easier to keep track of them that way.

If they're an optional rule, then I really don't care what they do. They won't be used at tourneys and shouldn't effect playtesting or point costs for anyone outside of people like Lady Blackhawk, so they're not really under CRB jurisdiction. Do as y'all will.


I hope you are still willing to lend your insight. :)

This one could expand fairly quickly if the whole urban play comes together. I always feel a little better after you chime in.

Ronin August 8th, 2018 06:34 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Personally, the thing I like about Heroscape is that it doesn't have things like partial cover rules, but I could see the appeal for the right kind of player.

I don't play a lot of Optional Rules. Knockback and Throwing DOs don't really appeal to me as rulesets (though the latter might if it were simpler and more digestible).

Tornado August 8th, 2018 06:44 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Yeah, I hope to dig into the Throw rules if we get the urban play going. It will be a bigger factor in that setting.

IAmBatman August 8th, 2018 07:47 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
That would be awesome, Scapey!

Personally, I prefer how the jungle pieces do it - just add defense against ranged attacks. Not even sure how partial cover rules would work (but that’s probably a whole different thread if folks want to get into it).

Hellfire August 8th, 2018 08:03 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
It definitely wasn't a "full" rulebook (which I'd love to see), but I did do up a simplified and streamlined rule reference compilation up through the Galactus ruleset because my group prefers playing with all optional rules ... in addition to missing example pictures, it'd obviously be missing new rulesets like the new spell rules and such, but it puts all the rules in one place, which we found helpful.

I skimmed through the previous discussion to try and catch up (so maybe I missed it), but how hard would it be (or how much opposition would there be) to also make a generic option for draftable DOs in addition to the VDOs? (It'd be useful for designing say, an Alien Queen, for instance.)

Ronin August 8th, 2018 08:08 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellfire (Post 2209008)
It definitely wasn't a "full" rulebook (which I'd love to see), but I did do up a simplified and streamlined rule reference compilation up through the Galactus ruleset because my group prefers playing with all optional rules ... in addition to missing example pictures, it'd obviously be missing new rulesets like the new spell rules and such, but it puts all the rules in one place, which we found helpful.

I skimmed through the previous discussion to try and catch up (so maybe I missed it), but how hard would it be (or how much opposition would there be) to also make a generic option for draftable DOs in addition to the VDOs? (It'd be useful for designing say, an Alien Queen, for instance.)

We were just talking about that! Draftable VDOs are strictly more complicated than regular draftable DOs, and there's some demand, so I think we probably will implement the rules that way in the end.

Hellfire August 9th, 2018 11:04 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2209009)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellfire (Post 2209008)
It definitely wasn't a "full" rulebook (which I'd love to see), but I did do up a simplified and streamlined rule reference compilation up through the Galactus ruleset because my group prefers playing with all optional rules ... in addition to missing example pictures, it'd obviously be missing new rulesets like the new spell rules and such, but it puts all the rules in one place, which we found helpful.

I skimmed through the previous discussion to try and catch up (so maybe I missed it), but how hard would it be (or how much opposition would there be) to also make a generic option for draftable DOs in addition to the VDOs? (It'd be useful for designing say, an Alien Queen, for instance.)

We were just talking about that! Draftable VDOs are strictly more complicated than regular draftable DOs, and there's some demand, so I think we probably will implement the rules that way in the end.

:up: Cool and makes sense .... I should've gone thru that last page and a half.

Ronin August 9th, 2018 08:54 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2207406)
Okay, so here's a spin at the rule additions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcglkn (Post 1441873)
Legacy Text:

C3G VEHICLE RULES

DESTRUCTIBLE OBJECTS - VEHICLES
Destructible objects are an official inclusion in the game, as seen with the Fortress Door and the Destructible Wall. C3G rules for destructible objects were established in the C3G Destructible Objects Rules. Vehicles are a type of destructible object that follow all of the rules of other destructible objects, but include a few specific to vehicles.

These C3G Vehicle Rules cover the following areas:

- Drafting Vehicles
- Entering Vehicles
- Occupying Vehicles
- Moving Vehicles
- Exiting Vehicles
- Destroying Vehicles

EXAMPLE 1: VEHICLE CARD
(Sample Card here)
A vehicle has three four designations in the left box of its Army Card: uniqueness, size, height, and occupancy. The size and height designations (such as Medium 5) are the same as those found on other figures' Army Cards.

DRAFTING VEHICLES
Vehicle Destructible Objects (VDOs) act like figure Army Cards in that they have an associated point cost listed on them. VDOs are drafted the same way as Army Cards. There is no limit (except point cost!) to the number of different VDOs you can draft, and you can draft any number of the same Uncommon VDOs (indicated in the leftbox). However, like figure Army Cards, each player cannot draft more than one of the same Unique VDO Army Card (indicated in the leftbox).

Like Army Cards, VDOs each have an associated figure that is placed in the controlling player's start zone at the start of the game and are considered in that player's Army. However, a VDO is not considered under a player's control unless that player has one or more figures occupying that VDO (see more below).


(rest of vehicle rules as normal)


I propose we start testing the Sports Car at 150 points and the Mole Machine at 250 points, with these rules additions.

(With the understanding that these are prototype rules that we may ultimately implement with lighter edits to the Vehicle rulebook, and a separate optional rule for a more generalized system of draftable DOs.)

@japes
@Arkham
@Tornado
@Yodaking
@johnny139
@Scapemage
@Spidey'tilIDie

Yodaking August 9th, 2018 08:58 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
yea

Scapemage August 9th, 2018 09:01 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Yea. Let's go for it!

Spidey'tilIDie August 9th, 2018 09:39 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Abstain I haven't been able to keep up with this, but I fully trust you guys and fully support you!

Tornado August 10th, 2018 08:39 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Yea

johnny139 August 10th, 2018 11:16 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Yea

Wording seems fine to be. 150 for a Sports Car seems kind of high but, well, they're pretty pricy in real life too...

Dysole August 11th, 2018 01:36 PM

Little Concern
 
This should be fine as long as the vehicles aren't busted.

~Dysole, beginning her catch up

japes August 11th, 2018 11:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2208965)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2208942)
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2208927)
Once we feel that rulebook is a bit more "complete" we should see who wants to go in on a mass printing to save some money. :-)

Someday (not any time soon, mind) I'm going to propose a set of Partial Cover optional rules - not any more necessary than Knockback, just there to provide depth and realism to those who wish to use 'em. :)


I'd like to see the desks and file cabinets I've been talking about for the office building Bats is working on provide partial cover. The idea of moving around an office building while engaging in a firefight just lends itself to people ducking and crouching here and there looking for some cover. At the very least their legs are harder to hit and damage when shooting through desks and servers.


I've got some DO's in my design thread that sort of crib from multiple places including HOSS. I play with different levels of Partial Cover for the sizes...I've also thought about using something similar to the Human Shield power currently drafted on Crossbones where the cover absorbs the first wound and any extra can spill over...

IAmBatman August 12th, 2018 12:00 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
I think most partial cover effects would be brought out by the special powers on the DOs.

japes August 12th, 2018 12:04 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2210025)
I think most partial cover effects would be brought out by the special powers on the DOs.

That's what I remember doing with the Large crates DO's. It was a power on it's card. Just like the Long and Short Ruins.

Actually you can see it here....

Lazy Orang August 12th, 2018 07:17 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
I'll be frank... I always kind of hated the Ruins. Oh, yeah, I can stand just in front of this ruin and gain cover! Yeah... no.

I'd much rather a set of rules for Partial Cover, since I reckon they can be kept as simple as the rules for Knockback etc., if not simpler, and I'd like to be able to take cover behind battlements, cars and elevation changes.

IAmBatman August 12th, 2018 09:48 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Could probably keep it to a sentence:

PARTIAL COVER
If a figure targets a non-adjacent figure for an attack, and any part of the targeted figure’s hitzone is covered by another figure or terrain piece, the targeted figure adds one did to its defense against the targeting figure’s attack.

Or something like that. I’m sure there’s better wording. Could probably use the jungle terrain as a basis.

japes August 12th, 2018 11:44 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2210058)
I'll be frank... I always kind of hated the Ruins. Oh, yeah, I can stand just in front of this ruin and gain cover! Yeah... no.

I'd much rather a set of rules for Partial Cover, since I reckon they can be kept as simple as the rules for Knockback etc., if not simpler, and I'd like to be able to take cover behind battlements, cars and elevation changes.

Not really anything different than the Jungle Terrain giving you a defense boost for standing next to it.

Ronin August 12th, 2018 12:01 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
This vote passes despite being ignored in favor partial cover rules discussion.

(Get your own thread for that! :p Or make a general 'new optional rules discussion thread' to brainstorm game expansions - it'll be easier to find the conversation later that way.)

150 may seem on the high end for a sports car, but I can foresee plenty of scenarios where a car would be as useful to you as say, Stilt-Man.

I'll run some games with the sports car and the mole machine this week.

IAmBatman August 12th, 2018 01:02 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Thanks! :up:

quozl August 12th, 2018 01:07 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2210102)
I'll run some games with the sports car and the mole machine this week.

Let's add them to public testing after we do initials to drum up some excitement.

Lazy Orang August 12th, 2018 01:28 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by japes (Post 2210094)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2210058)
I'll be frank... I always kind of hated the Ruins. Oh, yeah, I can stand just in front of this ruin and gain cover! Yeah... no.

I'd much rather a set of rules for Partial Cover, since I reckon they can be kept as simple as the rules for Knockback etc., if not simpler, and I'd like to be able to take cover behind battlements, cars and elevation changes.

Not really anything different than the Jungle Terrain giving you a defense boost for standing next to it.

That feels thematic for me for blending into the forest. It doesn't feel thematic for taking cover behind a wall.

Tornado August 12th, 2018 01:34 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
You should start a thread for this L_O.

Lazy Orang August 12th, 2018 01:38 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2210157)
You should start a thread for this L_O.

I'm in no hurry on it, it's just an optional rule I'd be interested in running at some stage. Definitely not while another optional rule's in development and probably not while I'm only a Sidekick. :)

Tornado August 12th, 2018 01:43 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
At least move the discussion to your workshop then. :)

Ronin August 12th, 2018 05:24 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Vote for Initial T
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by quozl (Post 2210138)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2210102)
I'll run some games with the sports car and the mole machine this week.

Let's add them to public testing after we do initials to drum up some excitement.

Yeah, definitely. :up:

Ronin August 22nd, 2018 04:37 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I've let these games get away from me a little bit, but I haven't forgotten! Will hit at least the Sports Car in the next couple days.

IAmBatman August 22nd, 2018 04:39 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Sweet. This was one of those many, many "irons in the fire" I was thinking of.

Ronin August 27th, 2018 08:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Finally putting armies together for the initial (I know, running behind). This is what I have so far:

Sports Car, Conan, Mantis, Zombie (670)
Sports Car x2, Walker x4, Selene, Jubilee, Lurker x2, Roamer, Skrull Infiltrator (1000)
Sports Car, Lady Blackhawk, Rover, Sage, Selene, Jubilee (1030)
Sports Car, Mantis, Zombie, Larfleeze, Alien Drone, Atom (1000)
Sports Car x2, Alien Drone x4, Robot, Skrull Infiltrator (1000)
Sports Car, Star-Lord, Nebula, Mantis, Stature (1000)

Kinda playing around with the possibilities. The way the vehicle rules work, a lot of OM hubs don't let you take a turn with a figure occupying a vehicle, but I did find a couple things of note:

-Mantis can move OMs to the card of a figure occupying a vehicle (Sage can't)
-If Rover's Companion is in a vehicle, you can reveal an OM on his Companion's card and choose whether to take a turn with Rover or his Companion

Beyond that, some strategies:

-Exploiting the DOs for Selene's auto-wounding power
-Leveraging multiple movements or activations to quickly load up cars (Lurkers + Walkers, Robot + Alien Drones)
-Drafting figures that might not mind taking a wound when a vehicle is destroyed (Conan, Alien Drones)
-Leveraging the mobility from vehicles for bonding pairs (Star-Lord + Nebula)

I'll start running the games either tonight or tomorrow morning. Open to other suggestions.

IAmBatman August 27th, 2018 08:53 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Just remember that when there's no set schedule or deadline and you're doing this for fun, there's no such thing as running behind. :-)

Thanks for tackling this! If no one beats me to it, I promise I'll finally LD the Batmobile some time after you get things wrapped up with it.

Ronin August 27th, 2018 09:11 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2216150)
Just remember that when there's no set schedule or deadline and you're doing this for fun, there's no such thing as running behind. :-)

Well, technically no, but I do like to set goals for myself!

Looking forward to that Batmobile.

Scapemage August 27th, 2018 09:13 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I would recommend testing some of the games against figures with abilities that do extra or easier damage to DOs.

IAmBatman August 27th, 2018 09:13 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Yeah, I've been setting that one as a goal for myself for years, so I feel your pain. :-P

Lazy Orang August 28th, 2018 05:45 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scapemage (Post 2216162)
I would recommend testing some of the games against figures with abilities that do extra or easier damage to DOs.

Judge Dredd! :)

Also Ghost. A couple of figures who should get a boost from this, here. (So will Shocker, but he doesn't really need it, now.)

Ronin August 28th, 2018 10:13 AM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
I might run one game like that, but I don't see that as really necessary for the initial. The point of the initial is to make sure the Sports Car is fun, and not too juiced for its cost. Running it against figures with hard counters isn't really an area of concern.

Ronin August 29th, 2018 03:40 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Couple games in. Looking good so far, but I wanted to share just how much weirdness something as seemingly mundane as a car can add to the game. It's a surprisingly fun thing to have available to you.

The first game featured Conan the Carbarian trying to run down Black Canary, only for Robin to somehow punch through the car in one hit. Game two involved a car full of zombies mowing down Professor X.

Tornado August 29th, 2018 04:06 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Zombies can drive? Nice.

japes August 29th, 2018 04:53 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
One of the things that's kept me from participating here is the nagging concern that something could break here. There are figures that are slow, and that is as much mechanical as it is thematic. Getting to draft a DO and pile in a bunch of slow moving strong figures is hard to account for with a "figure" that can be stolen, such as vehicles. Now the zombies aren't really a concern but I think you get my point. Plus throwing Bailey Hoskins or some cheap hero in a car and letting them run people over seems like something that can be exploited.

Anyways, not panicking or anything just pointing out that I think testing and costing is going to be difficult.

Lazy Orang August 29th, 2018 04:55 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by japes (Post 2216995)
One of the things that's kept me from participating here is the nagging concern that something could break here. There are figures that are slow, and that is as much mechanical as it is thematic. Getting to draft a DO and pile in a bunch of slow moving strong figures is hard to account for with a "figure" that can be stolen, such as vehicles. Now the zombies aren't really a concern but I think you get my point. Plus throwing Bailey Hoskins or some cheap hero in a car and letting them run people over seems like something that can be exploited.

Anyways, not panicking or anything just pointing out that I think testing and costing is going to be difficult.

I do think it's reasonable to err on the high-side here.

IAmBatman August 29th, 2018 05:07 PM

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Initial Testing)
 
It could be yeah, but don’t some existing figures, such as Hawkeye II, offer similar services?


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