New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

So I’ve been working on this format for the past couple months with some help from Chris Perkins (you da man). The idea of it is by restricting top tier units but not banning any single one, it allows the game to be played with the traditional competitive army building but without being able to run all the known top tier builds, or ‘cheese.’ But, you can still play weaker variants of them.

The rule is you can only play a maximum of 225pt. of the following units:

-4th Massachusetts Line
-10th Regiment of Foot
-The Axegrinders of Burning Forge
-Braxas
-Deathreavers
-Fen Hydra
-Gladiatrons
-Grimnak
-Heavy Gruts
-Isamu
-Kaemon Awa
-Knights of Weston
-Krav Maga Agents
-Major Q9
-Major Q10
-Marcu
-Marro Stingers
-Marro Warriors
-Me-Burq-Sa
-Nilfheim
-Raelin the Kyrie Warrior RotV

This way, none of the top tier units are banned but you can’t really play a cheese build. You can play Q9 but with only one squad of rats and no Raelin, you can play Knights but only x3, Heavies can have Tornak and Nerak but no Grimnak, 4th you can only run up to 3 squads of, 10th can’t have a horde with Raelin, rats x3 + Raelin or rats x4 doesn’t have the typical top tier unique range to go with it, Nilfheim can have greenscales but no Raelin, etc.

I decided to leave Gilbert, Nerak, and Blastatrons off the list. Gilbert so you can still run 3 knights with him, Nerak so Heavies can still run 3 with him and not just Tornak (or Ornak), and Blasts so you can still run Trons, but you can’t have more than 2 Glads or 1 Glad+Raelin. Braxas got added to the list because we felt her + a bunch of rats got pretty cheesy, there’s a ton of great builds you can do with her and rats (Braxas+rats x3+AE+MW or Braxas+rats x3+Krav+Zetacron for example). The main reason for Kaemon Awa, Hydra, and Q10 to be on the list is because we were concerned with what could be paired with Raelin+rats x3 or Raelin+rats x2+MW. They’re also just really good units, too, and I’m sure there are plenty of other builds that would abuse them if they weren’t on the list. I feel like Marcu and Isamu should be on the list. If you have your 225pt. spent and you need a filler you’d have to resort to Otonashi or KG, which I think is a good thing, going with the goal of the format.

I’m actually not positive if MBS should stay on the list or not, I’ve gone back and forth on him. The 20 other units I think are definites though. I don’t know if anyone else belongs on the list, or basically anyone who ‘breaks’ it being paired with 225 or less points of what’s on the list. I don’t think AE or Cyprien need to be on it, they’re probably the next candidates. Maybe FE.

I think this format can also be applied nicely to VC. I’m not as confident in this list as the one for classic, as VC competitive is still a little unknown and ever growing, but I have thought about it.

It’s the same rule, 225pt. max of the units listed above with the addition of the following units:

-Cathar Spearmen
-Kuthnak
-Microcorp Troopers
-Quahon
-Vulcanmech Incendiborgs

Same deal here with VC world. You can play Quahon+Spiders, but no Raelin or MW, you can play Cathar but only up to x3 (and then nothing else on the list), you can play Kuthnak+Grimnak+Blades but no Raelin, and you can play Incendiborgs but no rats x2+ or other great stuff. Microcorp Troopers are kind of at a loss, they need to be on the list because running a bunch with Raelin is quite cheesy imo, but you can only run x2 of them (you do have room for MW). I’ve considered upping it from 225 to 240pt. so you can run more than 8 troopers, but I’m very reluctant as to how many other things that would change and potentially screw up.

Rygarn and B-11’s are on the fence as to if they should be added or not. Rygarn is very good and works with pretty much everything, but with all the units that are on the restricted list and would be limited to pair with him, we think he’s probably fine. B-11’s are another really solid unique ranged squad, but we felt they weren’t as powerful/cheesy as Krav a lot of the time. Still, I have my eye on them. And Brute Gruts and Heracles are probably fine too.

Again, with VC there could definitely be something I’m not seeing that warrants some tweaking. But I’m very happy and pretty much set with the classic list and restrictions. Thoughts? We might play this at an upcoming event, and I’ve been playing it in several of my solo games.

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

New formats are great! Especially one's that try to balance the current meta away from just Cheese. I like this format and think it has a lot of potential!

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

I love this format. Easy to apply for TDs, for sure.

Off the top of my head, I think Arrow Gruts might really like it, too, but that's the kind of thing that will face the crucible of testing. Thanks for sharing!

edit: Tagging @Earl_of_Sandwich , to make sure my excellent local TD sees this excellent idea.

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

I like this a lot! This feels better than the typical ban list I usually have of Rats, Rae, Q9, and MWs to cut down on the cheese. Are there some examples of why the point limit is 225, instead of slightly higher or lower? Or is this something that might be flexible? For example, maybe I decide I want to do this format with 210 points or 230 points. Is there something format-breaking that happens there?

Also, petition to change the name from "Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese" to just "Cheeseless." And of course its counterpart, VCheeseless.

I'm Not Apologizing
 

Lactose Intolerant

~Dysole, who couldn't resist

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

Originally it was 210pt., but I upped it to 225pt. so you can run 10th x3 (and it also enables Cathar x3 in VC). I think it works really well at 225pt., but admittedly I’m mostly theorizing. I’m a bit wary of 230pt., that allows Q9+MW, Q10+Raelin, Raelin+Krav+MW, Q10+ratsx2, 10thx2+Raelin, 10thx2+ratsx2, Stingersx3+MW. Some of those are more worrisome than others. 240 starts to really become problematic, namely with Gladsx3 or Gladsx2+Raelin. It also allows Rats x3+Stingersx2, Ratsx3+Kaemon Awa, Nilf+MW, Ratsx3+Hydra, Hydra+Kaemon, Ratsx4+Raelin. Again, some more worrisome than others.

You can tweak it a bit depending on what you’ll allow without feeling like you’re in the realm of cheese. Personally I really like 225pt., 230pt. is a maybe, and 240pt.+ I don’t think is good. I was considering 240pt. for the VC version for Microcorp’s sake but it just seems to open too many dangerous doors. 210pt. (and 215 or 220) works too, it just doesn’t allow as strong 10th or Cathar builds.

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

Based on what you've stated and tested...225 seems like the sweetspot.

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

That's good to know, I figured up was bad but wasn't sure by how much. That explanation makes sense, 225 does seem like a good upper limit. I think personally if I were to implement this in a tournament, I might implement Delta pricing for Raelin and maybe the Rats. That way, they not only eat up your Cheese Allowance, but they also eat more into the total army points. Delta for those two restricts even Rats x3 Raelin or Rats x4. It's not necessarily about army strength but speed of play, since those units drag out games and I prefer they be played to completion. However, my tournaments generally have a pretty inexperienced crowd, so that's what I'm pandering to. I imagine most monthlies, future Scapecons, and online would keep this as-is because Rats and Raelin builds don't slow down experienced players nearly as much (no one really mixes Delta with non-Delta anyway, just spitballing ways to keep the cheese as digestible as possible).

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

This format and Delta pricing kind of do the same thing (encouraging more lower tier units without banning the top tier units); it is not as necessary to combine them, but it could be quite interesting.

By the way, this format is a really clever idea!

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

New England Bi-Monthlys are going to run the non-VC version of this at the next event (March 11th).

Fyi

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

I like it! Thanks for the tag @Dad_Scaper

Re: New format idea: Traditional Competitive, Minus Cheese
 

Arrow Gruts, Romans, & Death Chasers probably all really like this