- - The Book of Leonardo
(https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=52491)
quozl
August 8th, 2016 06:55 PM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
OK, dumb idea.
Let's try this then (hopefully, it all still fits on the card!):
Quote:
TURTLE POWER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Leonardo, you may choose up to three other Ninja Turtles you control. One at a time, remove an unrevealed Order Marker from each of the chosen Ninja Turtles' Army Cards to add 1 to its attack dice and take an immediate turn with the chosen figure.
NINJA FOCUS 1
When you roll the 20-sided die for a Ninja you control, you may add or subtract 1. All Ninja figures you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Leonardo add 1 to their defense dice.
Viegon
August 8th, 2016 07:14 PM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl
(Post 2104992)
OK, dumb idea.
Let's try this then (hopefully, it all still fits on the card!):
Quote:
TURTLE POWER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Leonardo, you may choose up to three other Ninja Turtles you control. One at a time, remove an unrevealed Order Marker from each of the chosen Ninja Turtles' Army Cards to add 1 to its attack dice and take an immediate turn with the chosen figure.
NINJA FOCUS 1
When you roll the 20-sided die for a Ninja you control, you may add or subtract 1. All Ninja figures you control within 4 clear sight spaces of Leonardo add 1 to their defense dice.
I like that change to Turtle Power, but I'm not really a fan of the Ninja Focus change. Why don't we just give each of them an extra base defense?
quozl
August 8th, 2016 08:16 PM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
Two reasons:
Doing it this way forces them to move as a group in order to get the bonus defense.
Leonardo also leads the Foot Ninja and this helps them too.
TrollBrute
August 8th, 2016 08:30 PM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
It also makes him better with the Hand Ninja (and Kirigi, but whatevs). I worry that his best build might end up being him+one other Turtle+a bunch of Hand Ninja. If you're okay with Hand Ninja builds being near his best though, I can get on board.
japes
August 8th, 2016 08:58 PM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
Wasn't there talk about splinter having Ninja Focus 2. Wouldn't that defense bonus stack then?
If Leo is the issue then ok but if it's all the turtles not feeling adequate why not just up there base defense by one?
Ninja'd sorry.
quozl
August 8th, 2016 09:00 PM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
Splinter will have a different focus.
Leo does only give the attack bonus to Nina Turtles so I think he'll work well with just the other turtles too. And I'm not opposed to them working with other ninja. In fact, it follows the comics.
Japes, will all this fit on a card OK?
japes
August 9th, 2016 08:53 AM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl
(Post 2105023)
Splinter will have a different focus.
Leo does only give the attack bonus to Nina Turtles so I think he'll work well with just the other turtles too. And I'm not opposed to them working with other ninja. In fact, it follows the comics.
Japes, will all this fit on a card OK?
I'll have to check. I know A3n wanted to do all the turtles so he could make his cards using the awesome proxies he created but I should get a chance in the next couple of days to do a text check for you.
Viegon
August 9th, 2016 10:25 AM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl
(Post 2105011)
Doing it this way forces them to move as a group in order to get the bonus defense.
I haven't played them yet, but I thought one of the issues people were having was that it was hard to keep them together; seems weird to highlight that issue. :shrug:
Quote:
Originally Posted by quozl
(Post 2105011)
Leonardo also leads the Foot Ninja and this helps them too.
Well, as long as you give the Foot Ninja a D20 power they would have been already boosted by Leo; the additional boost seems excessive.
Those aside, my biggest issue with the defense aura is that the card already has a lot going on. He has four powers already, adding in the defense aura (by forcing two separate powers together) essentially gets him up to a five power card. It just feels like a very inelegant fix to me, making Leo's card oddly convoluted in an attempt to make the faction cohesive.
Giving them each an extra defense would be much cleaner and also give them a better chance even if Leo goes down first. As-is it seems like your game will be almost entirely contingent on whether or not Leo sticks around.
My :2cents:.
quozl
August 9th, 2016 10:33 AM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
That's a good point, V. Another reason I had for doing it this way was to avoid a whole bunch more testing. However, since we were lowering all of the 3 other turtles by 10 points each, maybe we could keep them at their normal points with a +1 defense boost?
Then we just add the attack boost to Turtle Power and give Leo a +1 attack and defense and try them all again at 700.
To sum up, we leave the points as-is for the other 3 turtles and we give them all +1 Defense. Then we change Leo to:
Quote:
NAME = LEONARDO
SPECIES = TURTLE
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = NINJA
PERSONALITY = DISCIPLINED
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5
LIFE = 5
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 6
POINTS = 210
TURTLE POWER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Leonardo, you may choose up to three other Ninja Turtles you control. One at a time, remove an unrevealed Order Marker from each of the chosen Ninja Turtles' Army Cards to add 1 to its attack dice and take an immediate turn with the chosen figure.
NINJA FOCUS 1
When you roll the 20-sided die for a Ninja you control, you may add or subtract 1.
DOUBLE ATTACK
When Leonardo attacks, Leonardo may attack one additional time.
STEALTH LEAP 12
Instead of his normal move, Leonardo may Stealth Leap. Stealth Leap has a move of 3. When counting spaces for Leonardo's Stealth Leap movement, ignore elevations. Leonardo may leap over water without stopping, leap over figures without becoming engaged, and leap over obstacles such as ruins. Leonardo may not leap more than 12 levels up or down in a single leap. When moving with Stealth Leap, Leonardo will not take any leaving engagement attacks.
Viegon
August 9th, 2016 10:52 AM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
That definitely works for me. :up:
One option we could do if we didn't want to give Leo 5 base attack (which is pretty impressive with double attack) would be to move things around in Turtle Power to allow Leo to be boosted by it too. Something like:
TURTLE POWER
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and before taking a turn with Leonardo, you may choose up to three other Ninja Turtles you control. One at a time, remove an unrevealed Order Marker from each of the chosen Ninja Turtles' Army Cards to take an immediate turn with the chosen figure. If you remove at least 1 Order Marker this way, all Ninja Turtles you control roll 1 additional attack die until the end of your turn.
Just a thought; either way I'm happy with the above version.
quozl
August 9th, 2016 11:00 AM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
I thought about that but I don't think he'll be worth 210 with that change. I think the double attack of 5 should definitely earn those points.
Viegon
August 24th, 2016 01:08 PM
Re: The Book of Leonardo - Public Playtesting
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Leonardo (this version)
Army Test 1
Map: Sacred Shrine (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo, Raphael (700 points) VS Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Man (C3G) (700 points)
Spoiler Alert!
UNIT SUM-UP Damage: 1 wound to Luke Cage. Power Usage/Effectiveness: Turtle Power: Order of use:
- Used the X to move Raph.
- Used OMs 2, 3, and X to activate Don (used the Gauntlet to move Luke), Raph (who failed), and Mikey (who put 2 wounds on Luke). Ninja Focus: Used to prevent Self-Importance once.
GAME SUMMARY:
All four of the turtles moved up and positioned on height within the first round, but things quickly turned bad for them when Spider-Man swung in and dealt Leo 3 wounds with a very lucky roll. The turtles won initiative for the second round and pulled off a full-force Turtle Power all focused on Luke Cage, but with some pretty poor luck they only managed a few wounds, spelling the end of their game. Luke and Iron Fist went on a spree, killing Leo, Raph, and Mikey all within the second round (the turtles rolled terribly on defense). Don got a single turn in the third round, and with some luck he managed to hit Luke Cage for another couple of wounds, but he was KOed immediately after that.
Round One: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Donny moves up.
ARMY 2: Luke and Spidey advance.
ARMY 1: Mikey moves up.
ARMY 2: Luke and Iron Fist.
ARMY 1: Leo and Raph advance.
ARMY 2: Luke and Spidey put 3 wounds on Leo with a lucky hit.
Round Two: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Leo charges and puts 1 wound on Luke, then uses Turtle Power; Donny uses the Gauntlet to move Luke into a bad spot; Raph moves next to Luke but fails; Mikey puts 1 wound on Luke, then hits Cowabunga! and puts another wound on Luke.
ARMY 2: Luke and Iron Fist kill Leo and put 1 wound on Raph.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
ARMY 2: Luke and Iron Fist kill Raph.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
ARMY 2: Luke and Iron Fist kill Mikey (Fist heals Luke).
Round Three: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Donny dodges a disengagement to set up Staff Vault and puts 2 wounds on Luke.
ARMY 2: Luke and Iron Fist kill Donny.
Luke Cage with 4 wounds, Iron Fist and Spider-Man unwounded.
Army Test 2
Map: Sacred Shrine (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo, Raphael (700 points) VS Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Spider-Man (C3G) (700 points)
Spoiler Alert!
UNIT SUM-UP Damage: 1 wound to Luke Cage, 3 wounds to Spidey. Power Usage/Effectiveness: Turtle Power: Order of use:
- Used the X to move Donny.
- Used OMs 3 and X to activate Donny (who put 2 wounds on Luke Cage) and Mikey (who put the final 2 wounds on Luke Cage).
- Used OMs 2, 3, and X to activate Donny (who tossed Spidey for a wound), Raph (who put the final wound on Spidey), and Donny (who put 1 wound on Iron Fist).
- Used OMs 3 and X to activate Donny (who tossed Iron Fist for a wound) and Mikey (who put 3 wounds on Iron Fist).
- Used OM 3 to activate Donny (who failed).
- Used OMs 3 and X to activate Raph (who put 1 wound on Iron Fist) and Donny (who put 1 wound on Iron Fist). Ninja Focus: N/A
GAME SUMMARY:
This game was a wild rollercoaster of luck. Similar to the last game, Luke and Spidey managed some early wounds on Leo, but they couldn’t quite finish him off. Donny used his glyph to put Luke in a terrible spot, and then Leo used Turtle Power the following turn to surround him. Solid rolls this time around allowed them to knock out Luke with an OM still on his card. Winning initiative for the third round, Leo used Turtle Power again and this time they surrounded Spidey, who failed all three of his rolls for Spidey-Senses, going down with 2 OMs on his card. The turtles kept up the heat for the fourth round, ganging up on Iron Fist and dealing him 4 wounds. But then luck swung the other way, leaving the turtles in the cold. While Iron Fist steadily worked his way through the turtles (KOing Mikey in the fifth round, Donny and Leo in the sixth, and finally Raph in the seventh), the turtles couldn’t manage to kill him. With Focused Chi slowly healing Iron Fist, the turtles kept dealing him enough wounds to bring him up to 4 wounds, but could never manage the final wound.
Round One: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Raph moves up.
ARMY 2: Luke and Iron Fist advance.
ARMY 1: Mikey moves up (hitting his Cowabunga! roll to get farther).
ARMY 2: Luke and Spidey advance.
ARMY 1: Leo and Donny advance.
ARMY 2: Luke and Spidey fail.
Round Two: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Luke and Spidey put 3 wounds on Leo.
ARMY 1: Donny moves in and tosses Luke out of range of his allies.
ARMY 2: Luke dodges a disengagement to go after Leo, putting 1 wound on him.
ARMY 1: Leo puts 1 wound on Luke, then uses Turtle Power; Donny dodges a disengagement to Staff Vault, putting 2 wounds on Luke; Mikey puts 1 wound on Luke, then hits Cowabunga! and puts the final wound on Luke.
ARMY 2: Turn lost on Luke Cage.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
Round Three: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Leo puts 3 wounds on Spidey (who fails both his Spidey-Senses rolls), then uses Turtle Power; Donny uses the Gauntlet to reposition Spidey and put 1 wound on him; Raph kills Spidey (who fails another roll!); then Mikey puts 1 wound on Iron Fist, hits his Cowabunga! roll, but fails with that attack.
ARMY 2: Turn lost on Spidey.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
ARMY 2: Turn lost on Spidey.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist puts 2 wounds on Mikey and heals himself 1 wound.
Round Four: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Iron FIst puts 1 wound on Mikey.
ARMY 1: Leo repositions; Donny vaults next to Mikey and tosses Iron Fist lower (putting 1 wound on him); Mikey puts 3 wounds on Iron Fist, hits his Cowabunga! roll, but does no more damage.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist puts 2 wounds on Donny (who loses his glyph) and heals himself 1 wound.
ARMY 1: Donny takes a disengagement wound but fails his attack.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist fails.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
Round Five: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist kills Mikey and heals himself a wound.
ARMY 1: Leo and Donny fail.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist fails.
ARMY 1: Turn lost on Mikey.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist fails.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
Round Six: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Leo fails, but uses Turtle Power; Raph puts 1 wound on Iron Fist; Donny puts 1 wound on Iron Fist.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist kills Donny and heals himself.
ARMY 1: Turn lost on Donny.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist kills Leo.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist puts 4 wounds on Raph.
Round Seven: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Raph puts 1 wound on Iron Fist.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist fails but heals.
ARMY 1: Raph fails.
ARMY 2: Iron Fist fails.
ARMY 1: Raph fails.
ARMY 2: Iron FIst kills Raph.
Army Test 3
Map: Sacred Shrine (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo, Raphael, Martian Manhunter (I) (1,000 points) VS Catman, Scandal Savage, Deadshot, Bane, Knockout (1,000 points)
Spoiler Alert!
UNIT SUM-UP Damage: 4 wounds to Catman. Power Usage/Effectiveness: Turtle Power: Order of use:
- Used OM X to activate Donny (who moved up and pulled Raph along).
- Used OM X to activate Mikey (who put the final wound on Scandal Savage).
- Used OMs 3 and X to activate Donny (who failed) and Mikey (who failed). Ninja Focus: N/A
GAME SUMMARY:
With the help of Martian Manhunter, the Turtles got moved out quickly to clash with the Outlaws. Raph’s Self Importance claimed the last turn of the first round and he used it to put 3 wounds on Scandal. The Turtles kept things up into the second round, finishing Scandal while Martian Manhunter moved in against Catman, who they finished off early in the third round. However, Knockout wasn’t about to give up, and she made her way to Leo, KOing him at the end of round three. While the other turtles tried to take down Bane, Knockout finished off Martian Manhunter. Unfortunately for the turtles, without Leo they just couldn’t do much damage. Knockout steadily kept up the damage, KOing Mikey in the fifth round, Raph in the sixth, and then Donny in the seventh.
Round One: Army 2 wins Initiative (Catman chooses Martian Manhunter).
ARMY 2: Deadshot moves unto height.
ARMY 1: Leo moves up with Donny, who tosses Raph forward.
ARMY 2: Scandal moves up.
ARMY 1: MM flies out and moves Mikey and Raph.
ARMY 2: Scandal fails on Raph.
ARMY 1: Self Importance triggers; Raph puts 3 wounds on Scandal.
Round Two: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Scandal fails but moves Bane.
ARMY 1: Leo positions and activates Mikey, who kills Scandal, then hits his Cowabunga! roll and moves up farther.
ARMY 2: Knockout moves up.
ARMY 1: MM fails but moves all four turtles.
ARMY 2: Catman puts 2 wounds on MM and Scandal puts 1 on Leo.
ARMY 1: MM puts 3 wounds on Catman and moves 3 of the turtles.
Round Three: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Leo, Don, and Mikey put 4 wounds on Catman.
ARMY 2: Catman puts 1 wound on Leo and Bane puts 1 wound on MM.
ARMY 1: MM kills Catman and repositions 3 of the turtles.
ARMY 2: Knockout fails.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
ARMY 2: Knockout takes a disengagement wound to kill Leo.
Round Four: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Knockout puts 2 wounds on MM.
ARMY 1: MM fails.
ARMY 2: Knockout kills MM.
ARMY 1: Mikey puts 2 wounds on Bane.
ARMY 2: Bane puts 2 wounds on Raph.
ARMY 1: Don fails with his Gauntlet.
Round Five: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Mikey puts 1 wound on Bane.
ARMY 2: Bane puts 2 wounds on Mikey.
ARMY 1: Mikey fails.
ARMY 2: Knockout charges.
ARMY 1: Mikey puts 2 wounds on Knockout (who becomes Smitten with him).
ARMY 2: Knockout kills Mikey.
Round Six: Army 2 wins Initiative.
ARMY 2: Knockout puts 1 wound on Raph.
ARMY 1: Donny takes a disengagement wound but fails.
ARMY 2: Knockout kills Raph.
ARMY 1: Donny fails.
ARMY 2: Knockout puts 1 wound on Donny.
ARMY 1: Donny fails.
Round Seven: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Donny takes a disengagement wound but fails.
ARMY 2: Knockout fails.
ARMY 1: Donny fails.
ARMY 2: Knockout kills Donny.
Knockout with 3 wounds, Bane with 3 wounds, Deadshot unwounded.
Army Test 4
Map: Sacred Shrine (no glyphs or special rules)
Units: Leonardo, Michelangelo, Donatello, Robot, Invisible Woman (955 points) VS YL Arkillo, YL Sinestro, Sinestro Corps Soldiers x3 (970 points)
Spoiler Alert!
UNIT SUM-UP Damage: Burned 1 of Sinestro’s markers. Power Usage/Effectiveness: Turtle Power: Order of use:
- Used OM X to activate Don (who tossed Sinestro for 1 wound).
- Used OMs 3 and X to activate Don (who put 1 wound on Sinestro) and Mikey (who burned one of Sinestro’s markers). Ninja Focus: Used to trigger the wound from the Anti-Grav Gauntlet (1 wound to Sinestro).
GAME SUMMARY:
Sinestro started things fast by rushing in on the turtles and their team. While Invisible Woman took their attacks, Leo was able to use Turtle Power to surround Sinestro. Unfortunately, their attack rolls were weak and they only managed to knock off a couple of batteries and score a single wound. Sinestro’s rolls, however, were hot, and he and his allies quickly took down Sue, Robot, and Leo all within the second round. Mikey tried to put up a fight, but neither he nor Don lasted long.
Round One: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Robot: Leo and Mikey advance.
ARMY 2: Arkillo destroys a Corps Soldier for Insurgent Motivation and moves out with another Soldier.
ARMY 1: Robot carries out Sue.
ARMY 2: Sinestro and a Corps Soldier put 1 wound on Robot.
ARMY 1: Leo moves and activates Donny, who jumps out and tosses Sinestro for a wound.
ARMY 2: Sinestro and a Corps Soldier put 4 wounds on Invisible Woman.
Round Two: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Leo forces Sinestro to burn a battery, then uses Turtle Power; Don jumps in and hits Sinestro for a wound; Mikey forces Sinestro to burn another battery.
ARMY 2: Sinestro kills Sue and puts 2 wounds on Robot with his SA (burning a marker); Corps Soldier kills Robot.
ARMY 1: Turn lost on Robot.
ARMY 2: Sinestro and a Corps Soldier put 3 wounds on Leo.
ARMY 1: Turn used for Turtle Power.
ARMY 2: Sinestro kills Leo and burns his last battery to put 2 wounds on Mikey; Corps Soldier fails.
Round Three: Army 1 wins Initiative.
ARMY 1: Mikey burns a battery off of a Corps Soldier.
ARMY 2: Arkillo kills Mikey and a Corps Soldier puts 3 wounds on Don.
ARMY 1: Turn lost on Mikey.
ARMY 2: Arkillo kills Don.
Arkillo unwounded with 2 batteries, Sinestro with 2 wounds and no batteries, 1 Sinestro Corp Soldier unwounded with 2 batteries, another Sinestro Corps Soldier with no wounds and 1 battery.
THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: This is a tough faction to get a good read on. At times they seem well balanced, if even a little strong, but then they end up losing the game. The dice weren’t very fair to the turtles through all four of these games, and the second game in particular should have been an easy win for them (Iron Fist surviving for rounds on his own after being brought up to 4 wounds is ridiculous).
Their weakness is that their entire game hinges on Leo. If he can survive and keep using Turtle Power, you’ll do well; but as soon as he goes down your game is pretty much over. Now, this does make them interesting to play, but it also means they often don’t do well. Future synergy (especially what I’ve seen brainstormed for Casey Jones) might help alleviate this too.
I also think Raph really drags the team down, and honestly I don’t think he’s worth drafting with the other three. I found activating him with Turtle Power was mostly a waste since he only gives you a single attack; instead, just save a numbered OM and use it later in the round on either Mikey or Don. Really, the only reason to draft Raph is in the hope that Self Importance will trigger (and at the right time), but that’s such a huge gamble it’s not really worth it. I’d consider using Ronan’s suggestion of giving him double attack when activated normally, and triple attack when activated by Self Importance.
Overall, I don’t think the turtles are all that far off from being balanced. If Raph was made more useful, and maybe some of the turtles had their cost lowered a little, I think they’d work. They still wouldn’t be a strong faction, but they’d certainly be playable, and future synergy could help bring them up even a little more.
GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: The turtles are a lot of fun, and tough (in a good way) to play just right. Pulling off a successful Turtle Power is awesome. Having Donny use the Gauntlet to toss an enemy into place so that Mikey can go crazy on them is really cool. Their opponents really have to think carefully when placing OMs as a good Turtle Power could take down their key figure. On the fun side of things, the turtles definitely get a :up: from me.
