Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Well since you're the next person, PK, go ahead and submit your choice. If dfonze or KoW make their way back here, I'll place them under you.

*Please follow the format shown on the first page.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Alrighty.

Agent Smith, from the Matrix series.
Using a Krav Maga figure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_smith


Agent Smith will be a Unique Squad, owing to his multiples in the movie. I'd like him to have the ability to corrupt other figures, either destroyed ones or through a d20 roll, into previously destroyed Agent Smith figures. Some form of martial arts ability would help, but is not mandatory. Also, an ability called "UNPLUGGED." Something about him moving weirdly in relation to normal order marker activation, owing to the part in the movie where he says that he's a free agent, no longer connected to the Matrix.

Card in progress:http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...agentsmith.jpg

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

UNPLUGGED
TBA

ME TOO!
When an Agent Smith destroys an adjacent small or medium Agent, you may place a previously destroyed Agent Smith on the space the figure occupied.


Edit: For Unplugged, I was thinking of an idea like the one proposed by Machineking below, but I thought it would be too powerful. I am really starting to like the idea of making him a common hero, though! But would there be a unique original to go with him? Probably not.

Also, I was going for Agent-only thinking I was in theme with the movie, but that was kind of off I see now.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Glad to see this thread is still going. Sorry I havent been around lately..my computer took a dump and I lost everything. I still dont have internet access and am posting this via my cell phone. Hopefully I will be back online soon and can re download all the custom making toolsband contribut to the community once again. Until then keep up the good work.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Surely the destroyed figure doesn't need to be an agent - Smith could assimilate pretty much anything.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Hmm...

Agent Smith
Program
Unique Squad
Agent
Pragmatic

Life 1
Move 5
Range 6
Attack 3
Defense 4

Replication Subroutine
When an Agent Smith destroys an adjacent small or medium figure, you may place a previously destroyed Agent Smith on the space the figure occupied.

Unplugged
At the beginning of the round, after initiative is rolled, you may reveal a numbered order marker on Agent Smith's army card and immediatley take a turn with Agent Smith.

Hand to Hand Combat
When an Agent Smith attacks an adjacent figure, you may roll one additional die.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I know you said Unique Squad, but I'm gonna try a new mechanic that's a bit off the wall to try and get the ultimate in theme.

Just going for theme here - this might be really expensive...

Agent Smith
Vydar (or maybe even Valkrill - Smith was just really chaos)
Anomaly (once he's unplugged, he's not really a program anymore)
Uncommon Hero
Agent
Ruthless
Medium 4
Life: 3
Move: 6
Range: 7
Attack: 4
Defense: 3

Unplugged - Begin the game with up to two additional Agent Smith figures on this Army Card. These figures are considered "previously destroyed". When an Agent Smith you control is destroyed, you may place it on this Army Card unless you already have 3 Agent Smith figures on this Army Card. When you reveal an Order Marker on this Army Card, you may take a turn with any Agent Smith figure you control, as long as one remains on the board.

Self-Duplication - When Agent Smith destroys an adjacent Small or Medium figure, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 11 or higher, replace the destroyed figure with one of your previously destroyed Agent Smith figures and immediately take a turn with it.

Stealth Dodge - When Agent Smith is attacked by a non-adjacent figure, one shield will block all damage.

The idea was to start with a couple Smiths, but be able to really multiply to more than you started with, which is what Smith did. Unplugged lets you activate any one of them with an OM on any card, and Self-Duplication can let you get multiple activations. I thought Stealth Dodge was appropriate since I'm pretty sure the Matrix agents were where the designers got the idea for Stealth Dodge on the Krav anyway.

EDIT: I just realized I need a way to keep track of which wounds are on which one... hmmm. I have to go wrap presents now, but I'll think about that.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

First impressions, very good. Overall looks like the kind of chaotic character I'd like to put on the board. ;)
Ideas...
I'm not so sure I like him being Vydar. But, then again, not sure which other general would have him.
Second, and I know I'll probably catch hell for this, but why not make him a common hero, drop his Life to 1 and leave the rest as is? I mean, he has Stealth Dodge and a killer Range. I don't see him being an easy kill at distance.
Of course, that's just my :2cents:.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

If we are making him a hero of any sort, I'd say a common hero rather than uncommon. To tell the truth I'm not a fan of the uncommon hero mechanic, and it just makes a little more sense to me to have him as a 1-life hero or squad.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I agree - revamp:

How about this? I beefed up Stealth Dodge to try and keep him alive longer to replicate, and made Unplugged activate all the Smiths, since with him being common it didn't do anything anymore. I think that's more thematic anyway, really. Again, this guy is probably pretty expensive...

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Nice choice, PK.

If it was Agent Smith from the first movie, I'd suggest an ability where when he was killed, on a certain d20 roll you could swap his figure with any common figure you control.

For this version, though, I'd like to see an ability that let's Agent Smith make duplicates of himself with any opposing hero. Sort of a modified Mind Shackle. Roll the d20, on a certain roll, you take control of the figure and card. For the rest of the game, you ignore the stats on that figure's card and use Agent Smith's instead. IMO, Common Hero would work best for this.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Suggested changes above.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

After thinking pack to the 3rd movie, I think Smith really is still a program ("The program Smith has grown beyond your control." - Neo to the Machine World "god" or whatever it is), though I think I like Anomaly and Program for his race - I'd be good with either.

How does everyone feel on Unique Squad vs. Common Hero? Smith just made me think of the "use extra figures" mechanic and thought it would work better as a hero.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I like the common hero designation very much, with some kind of Wyrmling-style bonding.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

There are several ways you can go with Agent Smith.

If you make him a Uniqe Hero, you can mimic the first movie pretty well.

The Matrix
At the end of each of your turns after Agent Smith has been destroyed, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 6 or higher, destroy a common figure you control and place Agent Smith on the previously destroyed common figure's space. Remove all wound markers from Agent Smith's card.

If you wanted, you could increase the roll and allow Agent Smith to do it to any common figure...not just your own.

If you gave him that, Stealth Dodge and Counter Strike, he'd be pretty strong and quite thematic, in my opinion.

If you're looking to mimic the 2nd movie, he really needs a way of multiplying himself. Maybe make him a Unique Squad with additional figures on his card. At the start of each of Agent Smith's turns, you could roll to put additional figures on the board.

Other ideas:
Unplugged
After taking a turn with any figure you control, you may reveal the X Order Marker on this card and take an immediate turn with Agent Smith.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

How about this for unplugged?

Whever you reveal a numbered order marker on any army card you control, you may also reveal the X Order Marker on this army card. Instead of taking a turn with the card on which you revealed the numbered order marker, you may take a turn with Agent Smith.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

If it is to be Smith from the 2nd or 3rd movie:

Unplugged
After revealing an Order Marker for any figure you control, you may instead take a turn with Agent Smith.

Something like this would make him very unpredictable as he would rarely have an order marker on his card.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Even better!

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Was Smith really unpredictable though? It seems to me the Smith of Reloaded and Revolutions (which was the unplugged one) wasn't unpredictable at all - he just went around copying himself everywhere and sought to copy himself onto every person in the Matrix, dominating with sheer numbers.

The only real unpredictable thing he did was copy himself onto Bane and get back into the real world, but even that wasn't really that surprising.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Relentless might actually work well for him.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I was going to put that on my card, then got scared of the death knight bonding.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Perhaps "unpredictable" isn't the right word, but he seemed to show up everywhere. Allowing Smith to take a turn any time you reveal a marker fits that, IMO. It would keep your opponent "looking over his shoulder," so to speak, much like the characters in the movie.


Edit: Relentless fits very well.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

How about insidious?

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I like that.

How about...

UNPLUGGED
When revealing an order marker for a figure you control that is within X clear sight spaces of Agent Smith, instead of taking a turn with that figure, you may switch Agent Smith with the figure and take a turn with Agent Smith. If a figure is engaged when moved with Unplugged, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Insidious is good but I think Relentless really fits him well.

EDIT:
Now that I think about it I do think a post-destruction replacement ability is the best and most thematic. Refresh me- did the agents destroy the host when they took over or did the people revert back when the agent was finished with them? Either I don't recall, or the movies never dealt with that.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

If I recall, if an agent was killed, he left the dead host for another. The poor unfortunate previous host was left dead on the ground with whatever wounds were inflicted.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

hmmm... interesting. That gives me an idea for an ability but not for Agent Smith.

How about an AE type of ability to really give the feel of Agent Smith dropping in unexpectedly (this is with a Common Hero approach in mind)...

UNPLUGGED
You may place up to 3 Agent Smith figures on this card. Agent Smith does not start the game on the battlefield. At the start of each round, before you place Order Markers, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher you may remove 1 common figure you control from the battlefield and place 1 Agent Smith from this card on the space the removed figure occupied. If Agent Smith is destroyed you may place him back on this card.

This kind of bounces off of Balantai's idea. It is kind of wordy though for a fig that has other abilities. Oh, well, it was a thought...

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I think we need to decide which Agent Smith we are making, because he is distinctly different from the Matrix to Reloaded and Revolutions (or actually, from the point Neo falls in love with Trinity onward).

If we're making pre-Neo-loves-Trinity Smith, then he's just a regular Matrix agent that might be a little angrier than the others. He should have Stealth Dodge and probably some sort of ability to replace another figure on the battlefield, but he should be a singular entity.

If we're making post-Neo-loves-Trinity Smith, when he's getting out of hand because Neo's love is forcing the equation to unbalance, then he should still have Stealth Dodge, along with the ability to somehow copy himself so that there are multiple Smiths. I think this is what the original idea was going towards with him being a Unique Squad, and also with the "Unplugged" ability, since Smith does not become unplugged from the Matrix until Neo falls in love with Trinity and destroys his original program.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

:thumbsup:
Let's give PK a chance to define more his vision for Agent Smith and which version of the program he would like to see fleshed out.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I think that he should still be a unique hero. But, he should have the ability to spawn uncommon Agent Smiths from already living Smiths. The original should be considered unique because he is still a person not "an Agent smith" he is "The Agent Smith." Also, this way a person cannot draft multiple Agent Smiths. In the movie could the characters tell which smith was real? If so he is unique.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Once Smith copied himself once, no one could tell which was the original one - they ALL were. At the end of Revolution, Neo becomes a Smith and is then killed by the machines in the real world, who supposedly were able to access the Smith program within Neo's body and delete it, since programs are supposed to return to the source for deletion once their purpose had been served, and that's where Neo was. When that happened, all of the other Smith's died, too, signifying that they were all indeed the same Smith, not just clones of Smith himself.

I'm not sure if that paragraph even makes any sense. However, I'd be OK with a player being able to draft multiple Smiths (as long as he is the Reloaded/Revolutions version, and not the original version). Smith is completely out of control - he had copies of himself copying himself all over the place. There's no reason why you couldn't just start with some copies on the field if you paid the points for them.

If we really wanted to get literal with the Reloaded/Revolution Smith theme, the last Smith would not be able to be destroyed while Neo was still on the board. As long as Neo is still there and his love for Trinity exists, Smith will continue to replicate and come back in an effort to balance the equation out.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Let's wait for Pumpkinking to post his first draft to see which version he's looking to create. I understand it's the holiday so there's no hurry. :D

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Agreed.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Wow, has it been interesting watching people geek out about the Matrix. :D

I'm definitely leaning towards the mid-to-end-game Smith where he disconnects himself, and is testing the limits of his powers. Therefore, (though the suggested ways he would work as literally every kind of unit that exists were facinating) I think he would work best as a 4-person Unique Squad. Here's my draft.

Agent Smith
The Matrix
Sci-Fi
Vydar? Utgar? Valkrill?

Program
Unique Squad
Agent
Relentless (I put Relentless because it is his pursuit of Neo that is a large part of his corruption and fall. Feel free to argue.)
Size: Medium 5

Life: 1
Move: 5
Range: 6
Attack: 3
Defense: 3

Replication Subroutine
When an Agent Smith destroys an adjacent small or mediumfigure, you may place a previously destroyed Agent Smith on the space the figure occupied. (This seemed to be the cleanest version of this ability that I could see. It may not be *perfectly* movie-accurate, but it's a good balance between unpredictability and usefulness. Should it have a restriction on the number of Smiths on the board at once, or does the fact that he's a unique squad take care of that?)

Unplugged
After revealing an Order Marker for any figure you control, you may instead take a turn with Agent Smith. (I really honestly liked this ability. It's simple, clean, and makes your opponent feel uneasy.)

Stealth Dodge - When Agent Smith is attacked by a non-adjacent figure, one shield will block all damage. (I'm still iffy on this; Stealth Dodge is the simplest, but I think more could be done here. Maybe add Counter Strike as well?)

Points: ???

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Nice!

Replication Subroutine
IMO, Unique Squad eliminates the need to place a restriction on the number of Smiths.

Unplugged
Sounds good.

Stealth Dodge
I could see adding a Counter Strike, but it may add too much to the cost. As it stands, Agent Smith is already a 4-person Krav Maga squad (with a bit less range and movement) with 2 other great abilities. IMO, we are already looking at 140+ for the cost.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

If you like Unique Squad, PK, then let's go with it. I agree that him being a Unique Squad means there doesn't need to be a restriction of the number of Smith's out there.

I know he's an Agent, but I really feel like he should be Valkrill. If it was original, plain old Agent Smith from the Matrix, he would be Vydar. As "unplugged" Smith, he's really just chaos, which seems to fit into Valkrill.

I think I'm OK with Relentless for his personality - it seems to fit him very well and, since he's a squad, we don't have to worry about Death Knight bonding breaking him. One thing we do have to worry about though is Khosumet - he'll be able to boost Smith's attack when he's adjacent and, with Stealth Dodge, 6 range and 4 figures, that has the potential to be really strong. Khosumet is so bad though that I think I can look past that.

Although I know it's thematic that Smith should be able to copy himself onto anyone, do we really want him to be copying himself onto his own figures? I could see an Agent Smith army with some Ashigaru Yari just chilling out waiting to be converted into Smiths when one dies.

I feel like he should be faster somehow. He flies in the movies (since Neo does), and he's really fast even when he's not flying. I'm pretty sure if Agent Smith and Marcus Decimus Gallus had a footrace, I know where my money is going. I'd say add Flying (though that puts 4 powers on the card and Flying isn't short. What about the C3G Flying symbol? If we're gonna go that route, he probably should have Super Strength, too) or bump his move to 6/7.

That ends my normal review of the card. If you dont mind reading some more Matrix geeked out points, open the spoiler tab:

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I think that is a very clean and elegant design, PK. The abilities we discussed were very complex and I think you did a good job of going with simpler yet still thematic mechanics.

I am with KC on his speed though. I would picture him as a little faster than average.

I also think that he would fit well in Valkrill's army since Valkrill seems, at this point, more representative of chaos. Agent Smith didn't march to anyone's drummer but his own in the later movies which is ant-thetical for an agent so I don't think the break from the traditional Agent/Vydar match-up is a bad or unwarranted thing.

I've gone back and forth on whether or not Smith should be able to copy himself onto friendly units. My final thought is... well, my almost final thought is... ok, I'm still not sure. I need to think more on this. I'm on the fence so a good argument from either point of view would probably convince me.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Much has been said, so I will summarize my thoughts.

I agree with speed 6.
I agree that being a Unique Squad means he doesn't need to limit the number of Smiths that can exist at one time. The limit is 4.
Khosumet is not an issue.
Nix the Counter Strike idea. It doesn't really fit. Just plain Stealth Dodge is fine.
I am not too keen on Flying, but maybe Stealth Leap. Wordiness becomes an issue, though. I don't really remember him flying in the movies, but I might just be blanking on it.
I also like KC's analysis in the spoiler. If we plan on doing regular agents, then we should probably reserve the Order Marker power for them. I don't yet know what Smith should have, though, but it's worth wracking our brains to think of something that doesn't seem to fit a plugged-in agent better.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Smith can definitely fly. About 3/4 of the final battle in Revolutions was in the air.

Remember - he's the machine version of Neo. He can do whatever Neo can, except feel human emotions. The reason he feels that he has to replicate himself (at least my understanding of it - the Matrix really isn't an easy series to understand) is because Neo loves Trinity. The love forces Neo's emotions to be stronger for Trinity than for the rest of human existence, and unbalances the equation. Since Smith can't feel love, he keeps copying himself to try and match the strength to balance it, and goes out of control.

I don't have any other ideas for Unplugged at this point, though I'm thinking about it.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

A few comments:

• No symbols. We're looking to have this project 100% compatible with Vahallascape.
• I can see adding Flying to his card, but we'll need to drop something. The text for flying is many much.
• I'm not sure I like Program, but I'm not sure what else he could be.
• Move should be increased to 6.
• I don't think he should have range. I could be wrong, but doesn't Agent Smith mostly just punch in the second and thrid movies? I think I'd like to see him as a melee figure.
• If we remove his range, I'd like to see his attack raised to 4.
• For Replication Subroutine, is it thematic to have to have Agent Smith destroy the figure in order to replicate? Why not just let him do it at the end of every round or whenever any figure is destroyed. Just tie it to a d20 roll.
• I'm not completely sold on Unplugged. I'm not sure how to change it or even if we need to, but it just seems a bit off theme-wise.
• I'd like to see Stealth Dodge changed from a "non-adjacent" trigger to a "normal attack" trigger. In other words, allow Agent Smith to counter any normal attack with 1 shield. But maybe limit it so that he can't ever roll more than 3 dice.

These are just my opinions. :D

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

That's a good point about being melee - I can't seem to remember a single time that he actually used a gun in the 2nd or 3rd movies. I agree that a melee attack of 4 is good.

If he doesn't have Flying, I think his movement should actually be 7. I'm pretty sure he's still faster than Brandis Skyhunter, for instance. 6 with Flying would be fine.

For Replication - Smith definitely has to destroy the figure. He had to do that thing where he sticks his hand into someone to copy himself.

If he's a melee figure, then I'm all for changing Stealth Dodge to something that affects all attacks, and I think he should get it against Specials, too. Personally, I *HATE* when stuff vital to a figure's survivability is limited to normal attacks. Especially a Unique Squad (tear for the Ninjas of the Northern Wind). I'd hate to have Q9 gun down all 4 Smith's in one turn because, for whatever reason, Queglix bullets are way harder to dodge than regular ones, unless its necessary to balance the figure (screw you, Deathreavers).

I wanted to call him an "Anomaly" instead of "Program" originally, but then I remember that Neo called him a Program when he tells the Machine Source about him at the end of Revolution, so I think Program is OK.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

Thoughts:

Flying with 6 or 7 with not sounds fine to me.

Turning him melee was something I was thinking about today anyways; that sounds good, and is a way to keep his points down if we give him Flying. I'll bump up his attack to 4 next draft, and that will cover hand-to-hand abilities.

Your arguments have swayed me on Unplugged. I'm not sure myself what it should be. Maybe something where he activates randomly after your regular turns, as if acting of his own accord?

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

If you are looking for Smith to "act" outside of the norm of the program on his own accord how about something like...


With this he is acting outside the normal parameters of Order Markers and even of the parameters of the player who controls him.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I really like that, Lamaclown. It's going to take up a lot of space on the card though, so I think we should leave Flying off if we do that. Maybe jump bump his move to 7 then?

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

We could always simplify it even further:

At the start of each player's turn, before Order Markers are revealed, you may reveal the X Order Marker on this card and take an immediate turn with Agent Smith.

I'm not sure what theme is for having your opponent take a turn with Agent Smith.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I was trying to get across the idea of Smith bucking the Source and doing his own thing (the player who controls Smith being the Source in this instance).

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

But then, if the opponent takes a turn with Smith, can he start attacking himself?

And what happens when he kills himself? Does he copy himself onto himself?

I think it might just be cleaner to allow the player to take turns with him, even though it would be a way to keep his points down if he had an "Eternal Hatred" type thing.

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I am definitely good with that...

Re: Heroes of Fiction: Design Thread
 

I agree to keep it simple. As far as Replicate goes, how about a simple D20 roll against an adjacent small or medium figure - 7 for a squad figure, 17 for a hero? This modified "water clone" makes him very deadly, and is thematic. It can only be done if at least one Agent Smith is dead.

Keep Stealth Dodge like the Krav; i.e., works vs. specials.


Life 1 (4 figures)
Move 7
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 3