Heroscapers

Heroscapers (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/index.php)
-   C3V and SoV Customs (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=75)
-   -   SOV/C3V Feedback Thread (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=56161)

Lazy Orang September 23rd, 2019 05:30 PM

SOV/C3V Feedback Thread
 
ADMIN NOTE: The first ~30 posts of this thread were moved from the SoV Nominations thread.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper (Post 2315611)
Well, that's up to you.

As I said months ago, my own personal feeling is that suitable metal minis, provided the quality and price were acceptable, would be ok. And you seem to have found such a thing. For myself - and my vote doesn't matter now, but this is the same thing I said months ago - the minis themselves (because the quality and price are right) are not a problem. I'm not in the SoV, and I don't know whether it would be a problem for other people.

I glanced at the discussion in the pre-SoV thread, and it looked like a good direction. I wouldn't assume you'll get a no just because they're metal. I mean, there would be a discussion, but I don't know how it would end. :shrug:

Honestly, it's SoV, I'd just assume you'd get a No... barely matters why. If you're in any way entering ground that hasn't been trod, they'll have a problem with it, and if you're entering well trod ground, they might deem that a problem too.
SoV is barely worth bothering with, IMO.

quozl September 23rd, 2019 05:36 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
That kind of talk isn't helpful at all and is very disrespectful to the people who volunteer their time to be SoV judges, LO.

Astroking112 September 23rd, 2019 05:38 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2315638)
Honestly, it's SoV, I'd just assume you'd get a No... barely matters why. If you're in any way entering ground that hasn't been trod, they'll have a problem with it, and if you're entering well trod ground, they might deem that a problem too.
SoV is barely worth bothering with, IMO.

It's perfectly fine to not like the project, but I don't see what coming into its thread to insubstantively talk down on it out of nowhere is meant to achieve. If you have legitimate criticisms, there are far more constructive and respectful ways to voice them than trying to derail an unrelated conversation.

Lazy Orang September 23rd, 2019 05:46 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
I've pointed them out, multiple times. It stifles the custom community by being an alleged 'gold standard' for every design and designer to strive for, while being elitist, restrictive, critical of creativity and cliquey. I honestly think this project has done more harm to the community than good, all told.

wriggz September 23rd, 2019 06:11 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2315644)
I've pointed them out, multiple times. It stifles the custom community by being an alleged 'gold standard' for every design and designer to strive for, while being elitist, restrictive, critical of creativity and cliquey. I honestly think this project has done more harm to the community than good, all told.

I see you arguement and mostly agree, that is why I'm responding instead of not. I think a lot of creators would be better served by making customs they want to play and think are fun. I happen to like the "theme" of SoV, well trodden land fitting with the designs and aesthetic of the original game. I also like that is vetted against all original units and C3V customs. it is also nice that the minis are normally fairly plentiful and inexpensive.

I do think the SoV workshop should move into the SoV section as to not dominate the customs board in the same way al C3G stuff is hidden in a sub form. I actually think SoV works better when someone else nominates the unit instead of work shopping your own unit to get it approved.

So your argument is good but the vemon is a tad extreme, however i guess this is the internet after all. I actually think it may be worth discussing the workshop thread and the nomination process as a group and not dismiss these concerns outright.

superfrog September 23rd, 2019 06:23 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Yikes.

I would never come into another project's thread and trash the project. If it's not your thing, that's fine, but please respect those of us who put a lot of time, effort, and thought into the project.

But to your points, I disagree that the project is elitist, critical of creativity, or cliquey. It is restrictive, but that's by design.

Lazy Orang September 23rd, 2019 06:28 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
It's not just 'another project'. It's monolithic. VC brands itself as being the face of Classic Heroscape now, to the point that Classic creators are overshadowed (I remember someone criticising Dr.Goomonkey's contests because they weren't putting out 'official' content and therefore held no value), and, honestly, does a pretty bad job of it, as far as I can see.
C3G manages to be engaging, exciting, creative and prolific. VC is glacial, restrictive, and aggressively elitist, at least from an outside perspective. That's honestly part of the reason Classic became less interesting to me than Superscape, and in my book that's an absolute crying shame.

kolakoski September 23rd, 2019 06:28 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 

Well met!

The SoV judges are in a tough spot. They must preserve the “flavor” of Heroscape in spite of the slings and arrows of outraged egos - mine included. If I do say so myself, the units released under the SoV aegis include a fair number of interesting characters and, admittedly, some not so much, but only in my purely subjective opinion. Overall, I’d score them at roughly par, proportionately, with C3V. That’s a good thing. [Let’s see how I feel after my next submission.]. As it is, Lazy, I suggest reexamining your position in light of the relatively broad acceptance of the SoV process and results among the Community at large. I learned long ago (likely before you were born) that, if one person feels you’re full of it, maybe it’s him, but if 20+ people feel that way, with all due respect, it might be time for a mental enema.

P.S.: Ninja’d by a few posts.



William099 September 23rd, 2019 06:54 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2315644)
I've pointed them out, multiple times. It stifles the custom community by being an alleged 'gold standard' for every design and designer to strive for, while being elitist, restrictive, critical of creativity and cliquey. I honestly think this project has done more harm to the community than good, all told.

Dude this hasn't been my experience at all. The SOV judges have always been encouraging and constructive every time I have submitted. I'm sorry that hasn't been your experience however vitriol and bitterness are not effective conflict resolution skills at all.

BiggaBullfrog September 23rd, 2019 07:46 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
I do think that there is a ton that VC could learn from C3G in terms of community engagement. I'm incredibly jealous of how seamlessly C3G is able to bring in community members to the project. That said, I don't think that antagonizing VC, its members, and its standards is the right way to do it.

I do dislike that most, if not all, classic custom activity seems geared towards SoV induction instead of creative and explorative customs. The idea of making something just for fun seems to be devalued, as noted with Dr.Goomonkey's contests.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wriggz (Post 2315652)
I actually think SoV works better when someone else nominates the unit instead of work shopping your own unit to get it approved.

Very much agreed. I don't love that there seems to be a lot of "career custom makers" focusing on getting their own customs through SoV processes. I wish there was more creativity going on in general, and that nominations came from members noticing others' creativity and nominating it. Much like a C3G process I'm super jealous of (don't know the actual name, but they nominate designs, vote through them, and the winner gets workshopped into their canon).

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrog (Post 2315656)
It is restrictive, but that's by design.

I think this is an often misunderstood and undervalued point.

Astroking112 September 23rd, 2019 08:42 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2315644)
I've pointed them out, multiple times. It stifles the custom community by being an alleged 'gold standard' for every design and designer to strive for, while being elitist, restrictive, critical of creativity and cliquey. I honestly think this project has done more harm to the community than good, all told.

I agree with you to an extent. Too many creators focus solely on trying to appease SoV for sure. Part of that is a testament to how most of the active playerbase left uses C3V to some extent--of course if someone has an idea that they're very proud of, they'd like for it to achieve the same level of recognition. That's a natural feeling. Unfortunately, because VC is intended to be an extension of the original game, which was largely simple enough to appeal to children and broad masses, this leads many people to focus on designs that they think will pass instead of what they want to make. Luckily, I've never seen a VC member push a creator to design solely for SoV--just the opposite, in fact.

That said, there are still multiple creators out there who don't just design for SoV and have plenty of great units because of it. I always enjoy looking through threads from creators like @Scytale , @flameslayer93 , @Pumpkin_King , your own thread, and plenty more. Not all of the stuff I see is something that I think belongs in SoV, but it's still great content that I appreciate.

To say that VC has done more harm than good to the community feels very misguided to me. Yes, there are downsides to the project and now, nearly a decade after cancellation, too much of the community's focus is placed solely on it. That said, we're looking at the community nearly a decade after cancellation. To say that just because most of the remaining active members place a high level of priority on VC means that those 9 years of effort have hurt the community far more than helped it is incredibly disrespectful to the many years of work that people have put into these projects.

Quote:

It's not just 'another project'. It's monolithic. VC brands itself as being the face of Classic Heroscape now, to the point that Classic creators are overshadowed (I remember someone criticising Dr.Goomonkey's contests because they weren't putting out 'official' content and therefore held no value), and, honestly, does a pretty bad job of it, as far as I can see.
C3G manages to be engaging, exciting, creative and prolific. VC is glacial, restrictive, and aggressively elitist, at least from an outside perspective. That's honestly part of the reason Classic became less interesting to me than Superscape, and in my book that's an absolute crying shame.
VC brands itself as a continuation of Classic HeroScape because that's what it is designed to be. That's why the designs, the many processes, and everything strives to make the cards feel as much like official cards as possible. That's one of the reasons that many of its fans like it so much. Sure, just like official 'Scape, there are some designs that I personally don't care for. However, for every one of those, there are more creative and exciting cards that push the boundary of official 'Scape in meaningful ways, despite the many restrictions inherent in making "official"-esque cards.

Again, it's perfectly fine if you don't like VC's style (although honestly "does a pretty bad job of it" is hardly a compelling criticism of the designs, but oh well). Everyone I know in VC has made a point of not trying to homogenize random customs. One of the things that I personally like about Dr.Goomonkey's Contests is that they aren't just VC-ish designs. Even if it's not my cup of tea, I can still appreciate the hard work that goes into those designs, and I'd never dream of constantly going into those threads to trash them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wriggz (Post 2315652)
I do think the SoV workshop should move into the SoV section as to not dominate the customs board in the same way al C3G stuff is hidden in a sub form. I actually think SoV works better when someone else nominates the unit instead of work shopping your own unit to get it approved.

So your argument is good but the vemon is a tad extreme, however i guess this is the internet after all. I actually think it may be worth discussing the workshop thread and the nomination process as a group and not dismiss these concerns outright.

I agree that these seem like reasonable actions. My impression behind the Pre-SoV Workshop being outside the C3V/SoV section was that it originally had a lot more commenters and wasn't primarily associated with the judges, but the two seem closely enough related at this point that I think moving it out of the general Classic Customs section is justified.

I also like it when people nominate customs that aren't their own (and would like to see that happen more frequently as a general note), but I think that the workshopping and whatnot would still go on in any case.

kolakoski September 23rd, 2019 09:28 PM

Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
 

Well met!

Quote:

Originally Posted by William099 (Post 2315670)
Dude this hasn't been my experience at all. The SOV judges have always been encouraging and constructive every time I have submitted. I'm sorry that hasn't been your experience however vitriol and bitterness are not effective conflict resolution skills at all.

Ditto.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:59 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.