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-   -   Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting (https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=47068)

dok November 20th, 2012 11:28 PM

Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Hey all. There's been a lot of discussion about the Green Wyrmling custom and how it should be done. It seems like the SoV is a natural place for this idea, but no individual has really been able to dial in a figure that met the SoV's approval.

So, the idea of this thread is twofold:
  1. Allow people to discuss the few dials that can be tweaked on a Green Wyrmling.
  2. Run and post playtests based on those ideas.
As I said in the SoV thread:


Quote:

Originally Posted by dok (Post 1716678)
When it comes to the GW, I think nearly everyone agrees on the following:
  • The sculpt choice
  • Fights for Ullar, Valiant personality
  • Common Hero
  • Wyrmling Bonding and Flying
  • 5 move, 1 range
That really just leaves the following four choices:
  • 3 attack or 4?
  • 4 defense or 5?
  • 30 points or 35?
  • How exactly will counterstrike be tweaked into fledgling counterstrike?

My current opinions:
  • 4 attack, 4 defense. 5 defense is going to be hard to balance, and 4 attack encourages using them aggressively instead of just as blockers.
  • 35 points. Just because it makes it easier to make fledgling counterstrike powerful.
  • By far the hardest question is how to design fledgeling counterstrike. At the moment, I'm leaning towards either counting every shield after the first, or adding some second test before the counterstrike wounds count (d20 roll, for instance).
Anyone who wants to suggest forms of FC should really read this discussion in killercactus's thread.


Anyway, here's hoping that we can put our heads together, run some tests, and figure out a version that works. The goals, in my opinion:

  1. A figure that is fun, dynamic, and competitive. A wyrmling that you want to include with mixed wyrmling builds.
  2. Green Wyrmling + Raelin shouldn't be any more broken against melee than WoA + Raelin is.
  3. Green Wyrmlings shouldn't make the strongest 4th builds stronger at any point total.

Hive Lord 1233 November 20th, 2012 11:32 PM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Very good idea for a thread dok. I'm interested in how this will turn out.

Bengi November 20th, 2012 11:53 PM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
I looked through the thread and it seems to go round and round, so I tried to think of a different angle to come at the problem. Here's what I came up with:

Counterattack
When this Green Wyrmling successfully defends a normal attack from an adjacent figure, you may immediately make a normal attack against that figure.

This way, a whiffed skulls roll gives the figure a chance to defend instead of an auto wound. I know it loses a touch of the flavor of regular counterstrike, but clearly that isn't working for balance reasons.

With this I would go 5/1/4/4, 35 points.

XDVincent November 21st, 2012 12:46 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
It could be done as all shields in excess of the skulls and blanks rolled are unblockable hits.

Soundwarp SG-1 November 21st, 2012 01:14 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Not terribly familiar with past attempts at this, so forgive me if this has been tried before.

How about


If a Green Wyrmling you control successfully defends against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking small or medium figure, if at least 2 excess shields were rolled, the attacking figure receives 1 wound.

Arch-vile November 21st, 2012 01:25 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Requiring 2 excess shields to wound may be the easiest and most elegant way. That feels the most like a Wyrmling variant of counter strike.

You picked the perfect stats, IMO. I don't think you should aim for a particular point value, however. I wouldn't mind seeing it at anywhere from 25-40 if it isn't broken.

NecroBlade November 21st, 2012 01:50 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Why not "If any excess shields are rolled, the attacking figure receives one unblockable wound." Triggers as easily as regular Counter Strike, but no more dangerous to heroes than it is to squads.

XDVincent November 21st, 2012 02:14 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NecroBlade (Post 1717181)
Why not "If any excess shields are rolled, the attacking figure receives one unblockable wound." Triggers as easily as regular Counter Strike, but no more dangerous to heroes than it is to squads.

I like this one. It's similar to the black wyrms power in that it is easier for a hero to survive but not for a squad figure to.

ZBeeblebrox November 21st, 2012 08:41 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NecroBlade (Post 1717181)
Why not "If any excess shields are rolled, the attacking figure receives one unblockable wound." Triggers as easily as regular Counter Strike, but no more dangerous to heroes than it is to squads.

This one is too powerful, its been tested before and it is broken against squads.

Bengi November 21st, 2012 09:10 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arch-vile (Post 1717174)
Requiring 2 excess shields to wound may be the easiest and most elegant way. That feels the most like a Wyrmling variant of counter strike.

You picked the perfect stats, IMO. I don't think you should aim for a particular point value, however. I wouldn't mind seeing it at anywhere from 25-40 if it isn't broken.

Elegant sure, but nearly useless. Two excess shields on a 4 def, 1 life figure is not going to happen very often, which is why this exact proposal has been neglected multiple times in the previous thread. At 30 points, a flying 4/4 figure that may occasionally land a counterstrike is not too bad though. The ability doesn't really help make them more tactically useful though since it would be such a rare thing.

Gurei-Ornery November 21st, 2012 09:15 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ZBeeblebrox (Post 1717232)
Quote:

Originally Posted by NecroBlade (Post 1717181)
Why not "If any excess shields are rolled, the attacking figure receives one unblockable wound." Triggers as easily as regular Counter Strike, but no more dangerous to heroes than it is to squads.

This one is too powerful, its been tested before and it is broken against squads.

It seems like blanks could be added to the power to limit it. Either make a blank required, 2 excess shields, or both to trigger. It should be easy to test out.

Also, I don't see how these guys would be much better than Samurai Archers with Raelin. TSA are ~22 points each and can activate 3 instead of 2 units per OM. Other than flying, what am I missing? At 35 points and 4 defense it seems pretty comparable. If you make them too weak, they will be easy pickings for ranged SAing heroes. We have enough of those already.:)

Shedim Kabal November 21st, 2012 09:26 AM

Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurei-Ornery (Post 1717245)
Other than flying, what am I missing?

Valiant personality. The suggestion is that GW+4th Mass would be broken against pure melee.


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