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Dad_Scaper July 11th, 2017 09:59 PM

Re: Diplomacy
Yes. I'll start:

1. Kinseth - Turkey

All Your Pie July 11th, 2017 10:33 PM

Re: Diplomacy
I was France. I'll get a statement up at some point; have to get my thoughts in order first.

Dad_Scaper July 11th, 2017 10:37 PM

Re: Diplomacy
1. Kinseth - Turkey
2. AYP - France

When preparing your EOG, it may help to review the season-by-season maps. You can also even embed those graphics in your EOG, to help narrate. Though I say that without actually making sure it is so.

Ranior July 13th, 2017 08:34 AM

Re: Diplomacy
I won't be attempting to embed the maps, for I'm not sure i can quite manage that right now. But I do have them open besides me for any who want to follow along.

To start with I was Austria. (I also happen to know kevindola was Italy. The remaning nations I havve guesses on but that's about it).

I picked Austria when I signed up as I've had plenty of Diplomacy experience and have fun with that nation. I also know it can be a burdensome nation to play in your first game so I somewhat wanted to take it so no newer player might get stuck with it and struggle.

Austria is a very boom or bust nation, and sadly it was quite the bust this time. But in those early years there were a few signs of hope, and I shall recount those here along with my failures that lead to my speedy removal.

At the onset of the game I knew I needed to make sure Germany and I had a truce. Most Germans easily acquiesce to this, but I was concerned that a newer player might get the idea that they could fight Austria, but most Diplomacy veterans will agree that is a quick way for both Germany and Austria to die early. Fortunately the Germans this round seemed quite glad to have a working relationship and we shared communication throughout those early years which in some odd way may have led to my later doom. But for a few years it was great as we both were helping each other out on what others were saying while having no funny business in BOH or TYR.

As for my immediate neighbors, I knew early on I didn't want to work with Turkey. I am not a big fan of the Austria Turkey alliance as I find it very hard to trust each other long term since Austria basically can't stab Turkey in this position while Turkey's best path for more centers often becomes taking Austrian centers. So overall I was trying to be more friendly towards Italy and Russia early on and see if they wanted to work with me.

I had misread some of the early communication and thought that Russia and Turkey were going to go for the juggernaut which worried me since I would surely be the loser of such an alliance. So I was pressing early to have Italy aid me in removing Turkey. And at least for the start things looked alright.

I started out pretty well with my first season accomplishing much of what I wanted. In the Fall I had gained SER, was sitting nicely in GAL, and had a general agreement with the Italians. The one issue is that Italy thought I was going to support him into GRE, but I had instead promised my aid to the Russianas to get into GAL. I thought Italy was taking TUN and then next year we were taking GRE. I do wonder how well our alliane may have held if we simply hadn't messed up such communications.

The next year is where things changed rapidly. I was of the understanding that I would aid Italy into Greece and in return others would help me in taking BUL from the Turks. This would start us off on a Italy Russia Austria alliance to take out Turkey which I was quite happy to do. The army in GAL was causing some headaches for Russia but I thought I could get away with keeping it there to ensure my safety as I thought the Italians looked like my best bet for a long term partner.

But then in the fall Italy reneged on their promise to assist me and Russia started playing hardball by saying I had to remove the army in GAl to receive his aid. I was very unhappy with these responses as I thought Italy really owed me for letting him into Greece. He couldn't accomplish that on his own, and now he was going to get to go to 5 total centers while he was keeping me at 4 while allowing Turkey to keep BUL. I thought this was just a bad move for all of us and was not being aggressive enough or fair.

So I went behind their backs and turned to Turkey for aid. He was overjoyed to have someone to work with and we had some great talks that I was very hopeful about. I was wary about getting into a Turkey-Austria alliance, but Turkey assured me he could help make it happen and so onward I went hoping for the best.

But then the Spring of 03 I was betrayed by Turkey and at that moment knew my game was likely done. Austria had begun to fall into the early bust, and it's hard to take it back from that position as it is relatively easy for the other nations to take out Austria if they so desire. At this point Russia wasn't particularly my friend nor Italy, and my future was crumbling. Turkey admitted that part of his reason for stabbing me was because I was telling him about all the conversations I was having with Germany and to some extent France and England and it worried him how I had already set myself up better than he for the late game and so partially turned on me because he thought he had a better chance to win with Italy. I can't say that didn't turn out to work for him, but I'd still like to think there was a future where both of us did the same trick. Alas.

By the time it was too late Russia and I did at least agree we had to work together to stop the Turkey-Italy alliance, but we couldn't hold out for long. We at least forced them into having slower progress, but by 1905 I was gone.

The rest of the game played out more or less how I thoguht. For awhile I thought Turkey might outright win as many Italian centers were very exposed, but in the end a nice draw was achieved by that deserving duo. I'm saddened that I wasn't able to work with Italy or Turkey to the end as both did prove to be excellent long term allies capable of working together for most of the game.

Overall it was a great time though and I was very happy to play again. Huge kudos to our new players who largely blended right in with the diplomacy veterans. Extra kudos for Kevindola for being a newbie who piloted Italy to a joint win.

Thanks to dadscaper for setting this up and overseeing everything. Great time.

I'm in for another if that's the plan. I'd love another crack at it haha. I can't help but feel I was this close to having a long term partner in either Italy or Turkey if we just could have developed together a bit longer, or perhaps if I had just tried harder early on a Russia/Austria alliance we could have perhaps won. I look forward to whenever my next game of Diplomacy is to get another shot at doing things right.

Dad_Scaper July 13th, 2017 10:11 AM

Re: Diplomacy
Excellent EoG, Ranior. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

1. Kinseth ~ Turkey
2. AYP ~ France
3. Ranior ~ Austria

Zetsubo July 13th, 2017 07:04 PM

Re: Diplomacy
I was England. This was my first game of Diplomacy so I was a little confused on how to play. I started off trying to get a stable hold on the mainland through deals with France and Germany and that worked for a while. My eventual downfall happened because I tried to do too much at once and miscommunication with Germany. I'm sure my lack of experience showed as France and Germany squashed me on my tiny island.

Anyway I'm enjoyed playing. Thanks for the great experience and congrats to our winners.

kevindola July 14th, 2017 04:03 PM

Re: Diplomacy
It's a MEEEE Pope Maaaaaaarioooo.

I was Italy. This was also my first game of Diplomacy and I thought it was very fun. To the point where I downloaded an app during the game and have played multiple games since we started this.

I started things by reading up on opening Italy strategy online, and the vast majority of them said. Turkey is BAD. Kill TURKEY.

And the reasoning seemed sound, so my long term plan was a short term alliance with Austria and a long term alliance with Russia while maintaining peace with France.

Things started off miserably as both Austria and Turkey appeared to have agreed to help me into Greece, but neither materialized due to some miscommunication on both parts. Fortunately they both were eager for me as an ally so I was able to get into there the following year and still claim Tunisia.

Things got messy in the end of 1902 though. Austria wanted me to move Greece to take Bulgaria and Austria would claim Greece. Russia was also interested in keeping the pressure on Turkey and was in favor of Bulgaria falling.

I however, just did not like the position it left me in. My army would be in Bulgaria but would have no reinforcements close by for another 2 season while I would be surrounded by Austria. I wanted to wait until 1903 so I could get some additional naval support in the area which would put at least on an equal footing with the other powers in the area vying for centers. I honestly at this point didn't have any plans to make any betrayals in the immediate future, I just wanted to be self supported. It also didn't help that Austria (Ranior) revealed themselves to me so I knew who it was and I have some experience with him in other games as a calculating player who is quite adept at manipulating information to suit his own needs, so I don't think I was ever going to be comfortable intentionally leaving myself in a spot where Austria could betray me easily.

Regardless, I told him no, I would not let him have Greece in the fall of 1902 and I explained my reasons, but that we could come to an agreement in 1903. Instead a hectic proposal was made for Russia to take Bulgaria and this I agreed to. But as those who were battling in this area knew, the Winter of 1902 will go down as a turning point in the war as Austria and Turkey made as striking retaliation move against myself and Russia.

I was lucky enough to retain Greece though. Of course, Turkey then approached me with a convincing proposal to strike back against Austria and I was in no position to decline. It did require a long term attack on Russia which I wasn't thrilled about, but I couldn't have it all.

Meanwhile I had a lot of amicable talks with France throughout the course of the game, but I just saw no long term alliance once Turkey and I had quelled the Balkans.

I spoke with France and Germany the most outside of Turkey and was able to coordinate a combined strike at France with Germany.

I thought the threat Turkey and I were posing was becoming clear, but the remaining countries would have had to quickly regroup in a ragtag alliance and it didn't materialize.

Leaving myself open to Turkey? It was always a possibility, but Turkey did everything I asked to show his commitment to a draw. Well he was slow on a few things, but we were able to negotiate reasonably and make concessions that satisfied each other. The other thing is that to be honest this was my first game and frankly I would have been happy coming out of it with a 2nd place finish. Turkey proved to be an amazing and crafty ally....at least to me ;)

good fun though and thanks everyone. I'd be willing to do another!

Dad_Scaper July 14th, 2017 04:14 PM

Re: Diplomacy
Thank you Zetsubo and Kevindola for your thoughts, as well.

1. Kinseth ~ Turkey
2. AYP ~ France
3. Ranior ~ Austria
4. Zetsubo ~ England
5. Kevindola ~ Italy

Kinseth July 14th, 2017 04:16 PM

Re: Diplomacy
Nice EGS you guys.

I haven't started writing mine, but I will try to write one by mid-next week. I have to go re-read all the communications between myself and other countries before I can sit down and write this properly.

~Sultan of Swing(Turkey)

All Your Pie July 14th, 2017 05:58 PM

Re: Diplomacy
Alrighty, let's see if I can get this down in a reasonable enough manner. Again, I was France.

I went into this game blind and I more or less stayed that way. My intuition was that France was a pretty good power to start out as, with basically unrestricted access to the Spanish Peninsula. In the first year I was happy to make whatever concessions to my neighbors that would allow me to secure those two points. On the diplomacy side of things, my initial thoughts were that an alliance with Austria would be beneficial. This, I think, was a miscalculation--Austria has too many pressing concerns to gain much from working with a power that doesn't border them, and as a result of my talks I somewhat neglected my more immediate neighbors. In 1902, both Germany and England violated our pre-established neutral zones, though thanks to warnings from Russia I was able to anticipate this.

I knew fighting both of my fellow western powers at once was going to be a losing battle. Since I had managed to position a fleet behind England's lines, I decided to side with Germany--I could promise them some concrete results that would quickly gain ground against England if we worked together. Fall 1903 was the turning point here--Germany took Sweden, and an unexpected offer of support from Russia allowed me to take Norway. At that point, defeating England was a matter of inevitability.

While I was finishing them off, however, Italy began to move against me. With Turkey focusing on Russia and the Italy-Turkey border seeming free of conflict, an alliance there became fairly clear to me. At that point, Russia and I agreed that only two things could happen--an alliance of Russia, France, and Germany against them, or a Turkish and Italian victory. Unfortunately, in defending against Italy's naval assault, I didn't have the forces to guard the mainland, and Italy was able to convince Germany to attack me. At that point, any hope of a resistance was lost.

D_S, I noticed at several points during the game you mentioning that the results seemed unusual. Having never played before, I'm curious about what exactly you meant. Are there certain ways that these games normally go and certain events that didn't occur here?

Dad_Scaper July 14th, 2017 06:30 PM

Re: Diplomacy
There were little things here and there that were, in fact, unusual. Repeated bounces in TRI were pretty rare, for instance. No Italian builds in '01 are very rare, and can doom the little green pieces pretty easily. As I recall, the opening in the West was pretty standard.

Don't regret trying to work with Austria. Normally, the best-informed players will benefit from their intelligence-gathering efforts. By working, for instance, with Austria, you could have learned valuable information about Italy's intentions, and by working with Russia you could have learned about England, and so on. Little clues.

The big mystery to me is why Kinseth did not take the solo when it was dangling in front of him. I hope he addresses that point. I think there were two factors: (1) the possibility of an IT 2 way draw was so appealing to him, aesthetically, that he would forego the solo. Two-way draws are rare beasts in competitive Dip, so *any* 2WD is a feat, but an IT 2WD is surely one of the rarest of all. So I suspect that had some appeal to him.

I also think he was partly motivated by a desire not to have to do the mental gymnastics required in a solo push. I think he was worried it would backfire somehow, and he knew that he was in the driver's seat so that Italy would have no chance to try to steal it from *him*. So I think he also was content with the proverbial bird in the hand.

I am curious for his own thoughts on the point. Kevindola's strategy of trying for that draw paid dividends, but it was brave to the point of reckless. Of course, I am here in the cheap seats and benefiting from hindsight, so it's easy for me to say. Perhaps KD felt like he didn't have any better options, and that may be true.

kevindola July 14th, 2017 06:45 PM

Re: Diplomacy
Kinseth just has a very trusting face

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