Heroscapers - The Book of C3G Destructible Object Rules

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Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Special powers, by default, don't work for figures off the battlefield. Lot of conversation about it earlier in the thread.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Well, that negates my F4 test. That was a fun waste of time.
So Lady Blackhawk can use her power but no one else can?
Do any powers work?
This should probably be a FAQ in the Sports Car.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2258253)

Well, that negates my F4 test. That was a fun waste of time.
So Lady Blackhawk can use her power but no one else can?
Do any powers work?
This should probably be a FAQ in the Sports Car.

I think fun and clarity of rules were my big points of concern for another test. Clearly we've got some issues to work out on the latter.

Powers specifically meant to work in vehicles still work in vehicles, and anything meant to work off the battlefield works in a vehicle. Basically the same as special powers for destroyed figures - by default, they don't work, but sometimes they do.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

That should absolutely be a FAQ in the VDO rules Book.

That certainly makes the Sports Car less valuable. I doubt I would ever draft one as-is. I am not sure they are worth even 100.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Weather Wizard is a pretty solid addition to any army with several bells and whistles, a car is just a car. Maybe they should only be 25 point add-ons to an army that don't do much other than provide some added mobility on a large map without road tiles. Save the higher point VDO's for vehicles of war like Tanks and Helicopters.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

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Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2258256)

That should absolutely be a FAQ in the VDO rules Book.

That certainly makes the Sports Car less valuable. I doubt I would ever draft one as-is. I am not sure they are worth even 100.

This is my concern. I'm not sure VDOs work without figures being able to use their powers inside them. And I'm not sure that thematically it makes sense that they shouldn't, or mechanically it's necessary.

If a power requires clear sight or measurement from a figure? Sure, negate it. But something like Mister Fantastic's leadership power doesn't. So why shouldn't he be able to use it from a car? Why shouldn't his figure mechanically be considered on the battlefield, just not in clear sight of any other figures?

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Special powers in cars means you have to make cars paper thin or very hazardous to occupants or super expensive. Otherwise we run into the 'cars are fancy mech suits for figures like Joker' issue.

I'd be fine with cheaper cars, but I think that would require a more thorough rework of the vehicle rules. Would love to see someone else take point on this and try to make that work. I've lost some enthusiasm for this over the last six months, and there's been enough negative feedback that I don't feel the idea is viable in its current form.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Sadly I'm in the same place with it. If we let special powers work inside the vehicle, we end up with competitive/defensive pod concerns. If we don't, we end up with draftability concerns where people only take them if the special powers on the vehicles really make them worth it, and for one special power vehicles, it seems unlikely.

But maybe the current direction, with special powers disallowed inside the vehicle, can still be worth it if we just go fairly cheap with them? I don't really think what they offer outside of a "mech suit" is really worth that much in price.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I for one am more excited about VDOs, DOs and Buildings.
I had a ton of fun with the Car and the Porta-Toilet.

I think we could explore both directions. Is there anything else to keep in mind if I run them the right way? Is there a good build to try?
Points? 50?

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I found they were a bit more useful for squads. For the most part I didn't find it rewarding to take a Unique Hero basically out of the game so they could drive around a car for a 50/50 auto wounding chance. But cheap squaddies trying to hurt Superman? For sure!

Sure, try it at 50 and see if it feels overpowered or not. If not, maybe it's a path to cheap cars. Then there's hope for a sub 200 point Batmobile down the line.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Thanks for staying the course! (or should I say, taking the wheel!).

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

NP. This is the stuff I enjoy. :)
Gearing up for a fifth run at buildings. Only the fourth run for me though. :)

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Just a thought, but what if we updated concerning passive powers like Joker to leave room for most powers acting fine while in a vehicle? I feel like that would be the best thing for the game, and allow for the most dynamic strategies.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Sort of what I was thinking as well. I was going to ask to brainstorm all the concerning powers and see if we can figure out a way around them.

Really though it may be design to save for later VDOs. That way you would have the option of the cheap VDOs that are limited and maybe more dedicated VDOs that allow a little more.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

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Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2258452)

I think we hashed a lot of that out earlier either in this thread or one of the rules threads where we were talking about off-the-battlefield stuff. It was a while ago and it'd be a lot to read through, but I think you could get most of that info by going through 1 or 2 threads.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2258452)

Honestly, though, part of what made this exciting to me is that it hopefully was going to make Lady Blackhawk more worthwhile... but if she can't be provided synergy while in them, that seems to hurt. It also seems a shame, from a fun and theme standpoint, that I can't activate my forces with Nick Fury, for example, have a S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent take cover in a car and then on my next turn, have him ram it into an enemy hero before rushing out and opening fire. It just seems like it culls half the fun you could have right now. :shrug:

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

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Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2258455)

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Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2258452)

Did we do an official vote on it? I can't recall.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2258463)

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Originally Posted by Ronin (Post 2258455)

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Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2258452)

Did we do an official vote on it? I can't recall.

I'm pretty sure we officially voted that special powers don't work off the battlefield, by default, and there was at least an informal consensus (at one point) that vehicles shouldn't be an exception. I'd have to comb through this thread and one or two others to refresh myself, though.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

OK. We have to weigh that against the pretty consistent "meh" reaction we're getting from testers, though. Does that change things?

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2258485)

Does that change things?

Yeah, it absolutely does. That's kinda why I'm burned out here.

Not saying we should stay the old course, just providing context on what that course was and why we were on it to begin with.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

:lol: Yeah, I'm right there with you on that one.

Maybe we should just say screw it on competitive C3G since it apparently doesn't exist anymore? :-P

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I'm not sure what to do here. I like the idea of having Deadpool driving around with one hand on the wheel while shooting at people out the window with the other. But then really he should only get one normal attack instead of his usual two. Having Reed Rubber Wrap someone to the side of a car while also driving said card seems like more than he should be able to effectivly do. However, Zemo issuing orders to his allies via a wireless headset while driving is certainly something he should be able to do, people talk and drive all the time. I don't know if there is a rule that would ever me thematically correct for all circumstances. So the question becomes which side do you want to err on? Let some powers that don't make sense still work, or not let some powers that should work do so.

I think I would err on the side of letting all powers work while driving the car, but maybe at a penalty to any roll that is made. Roll 1 fewer att. die when attacking with a normal or special attack, and subtract 4 from any d20 roll made for a special power. As Ronin mentioned, if all powers work in the car, they become suits of armor for people to draft though. If that is the case, then the damage inflicted for being inside the car when it gets destroyed should be catastrophic, or perhaps make the car not very effective as armor. Maybe something like, for every wound the vehicle takes one figure inside the vehicle also takes one wound. Then it's not really a suit of armor for one figure anymore.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I think cutting off some things makes sense. Like if a car blocks engagement and clear sight, for instance, it cuts off a lot of powers while leaving a lot of others.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2258504)

I think cutting off some things makes sense. Like if a car blocks engagement and clear sight, for instance, it cuts off a lot of powers while leaving a lot of others.

That would be my barometer on a thematic level. Can Xavier command you if you're in a car? Yes. Can Luke Cage? No.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2258510)

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman (Post 2258504)

I think cutting off some things makes sense. Like if a car blocks engagement and clear sight, for instance, it cuts off a lot of powers while leaving a lot of others.

That would be my barometer on a thematic level. Can Xavier command you if you're in a car? Yes. Can Luke Cage? No.

And that would seem thematically consistent with small structures, IMO. You can't engagement strike through even a porta john wall, but you could mind read through it, for instance.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Okay, sounds like we're in agreement here. Would Joker being able to Reorganise Chaos from within a car be a concern? Arguably there are already figures who'd help his defences more, but I am concerned about anything that could make that little bastard more powerful (I have some bad memories :razz:).

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

The main issue was the Car being armor correct?
What if instead of rolling an unlockable attack die when the Car is destroyed, instead all excess wounds go to all passengers?
It is still armor but not nearly as good.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2258541)

That could be one way to do it, but how do you spread that? Other ways would include:

1) Increasing the damage involved in being wrecked (2 unblockables, 3 unblockables etc).
2) Making the 1 unblockable whenever the car receives a wound, whether destroyed or not (those bullets might just go through the glass; being punched by Superman might just hurt the occupants; ramming into the Hulk might result in whiplash from the impact. This might be my favourite; kind of feels more realistic than the current rule, honestly - being in a car doesn't make you invulnerable, but does provide some cover).
or;
3) Both (probably the most realistic, but also possibly too harsh).

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

No spread. Both passengers take the full damage is what I propose.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2258516)

Thematically he definitely should be able to create that level of chaos from a car, IMO (and a future Jokermobile!).

Mechanically/competitively it's a concern.

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Originally Posted by Lazy Orang (Post 2258545)

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Originally Posted by Tornado (Post 2258541)

I really, really like option 2 above as the most elegant way to handle it. It's a very small tweak that I could see paying big dividends. And it really prevents it from being full armor. In fact, that'd weaken a lot of characters' defense when in it.

My only concern with that tweak is that it might go back to making riding in cars unappealing! I think it's thematic, though, as often being behind the wheel is MORE dangerous, not less.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I like my suggestion because it is less variable. You know exactly how much protection you are getting. That should be easier to cost.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

There's a point to that. I kind of like the theme of taking damage while driving around too, though.

Any feelings on this @Ronin ? Or anyone else invested? I think there are some viable options here we could work with.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

6 Def and a 50/50 chance of taking a wound whenever the car does is still solid protection, just not completely reliable, which feels right for being behind the wheel, IMO, and protection isn't all it's offering. I don't feel like cars really need to be tanks or mobile bunkers - you're using them for the 8 Move and Hit and Run damage as much as cover. Might lower their cost, but that's no bad thing.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

OK, these will ultimately, I think, be applicable to the Enclosed Structure rules as well, once we change the word "Vehicles" a few dozen times, but I wanted to start here, since, you know, I haven't changed that word yet. :-P

Let me know if you all think the proposed changes work and if we can/should test that way. If so, we can resurrect the Porta Toilet and Sports Car both, I believe!

Spoiler Alert!

Changes to Vehicle Destructible Objects Rules:

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These C3G Vehicle Rules cover the following areas: •Drafting Vehicles • Entering Vehicles • Occupying Vehicles •Partial and Full Cover • Moving Vehicles • Exiting Vehicles • Destroying Vehicles

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EXAMPLE 1: Vehicle Card Like the Official Destructible Objects cards, the Vehicle Destructible Objects cards that are affected by this rule set have a similar appearance but with a few inclusions.

Uniqueness: Whether a Vehicle is Unique or Common.

Occupancy: The number value indicates the number of figures that can occupy the Vehicle.

Size/Height: The Size and Height indicate the Vehicle’s actual size and height as per the standard Heroscape game mechanics, but also by their inclusion symbolise that this Destructible Object is compatible with the throwing rules from the C3G Destructible Objects rule set.

Partial Cover/Full Cover: This indicates whether a Vehicle offers Partial Cover or Full Cover for occupying figures.

Move: Because these Destructible Objects are Vehicles, a Move value is included to allow their movement across the battlefield as described in the standard Heroscape rules.

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ENTERING VEHICLES

A figure may enter a Vehicle by ending its movement on a space adjacent to the Vehicle if it meets the following criteria:

• Your figure’s size must be smaller than that of the Vehicle. Refer to Example 1 to identify the Vehicle’s size on its Army Card. NOTE - The size of a figure is located on the left hand side of its Army Card next to its height. The different sizes are ordered from smallest to largest as follows: Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, and Huge.

• The current occupancy of the Vehicle must be less than the Occupancy number of the Vehicle. The occupancy designation on a Vehicle Army Card shows the number of figures that may occupy a Vehicle. A figure can only enter a Vehicle if that Vehicle has fewer figures on its Army Card than its Occupancy number (example: If a car has an Occupancy number of 2, but only has 1 figure placed on its Army Card, a 2nd figure can enter that car).

• There are no figures controlled by other players occupying the Vehicle currently. Refer to Occupying Vehicles for further details.

• Some Vehicles may have specific entrances/exits marked on the figure itself. In this case the Vehicle can only be entered or exited from empty spaces within one space in the direction that the entrance/exit is directly facing.

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DRAFTING VEHICLES

Vehicle Destructible Objects (VDOs) act like figure Army Cards in that they have an associated point cost listed on them. VDOs are drafted the same way as Army Cards. There is no limit (except point cost!) to the number of different VDOs you can draft, and you can draft any number of the same Uncommon VDOs (indicated in the leftbox). However, like figure Army Cards, each player cannot draft more than one of the same Unique VDO Army Card (indicated in the leftbox).

Like Army Cards, VDOs each have an associated figure that is placed in the controlling player's start zone at the start of the game and are considered in that player's Army. However, a VDO is not considered under a player's control unless that player has one or more figures occupying that VDO (see more below).

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OCCUPYING VEHICLES

Figures occupying a Vehicle are still considered on the battlefield, controlled by the Player whose Army they are in, occupying the same space or spaces as that Vehicle for the purpose of counting spaces for range and power selection, but are not affected by any special terrain rules for that space. Figures inside a Vehicle are considered adjacent to each other and the Vehicle itself, but are never considered adjacent to or engaged with figures outside of the Vehicle.

A figure occupying a Vehicle may still have Order Markers placed and revealed on its Army Card. If one or more of your figures occupies a Vehicle, you now control that Vehicle. However, Order Markers cannot be placed on the Vehicle’s Army Card.

If a Vehicle is ever suddenly occupied by figures of different players (e.g.: one of your figures is Mind Controlled by another player), the Vehicle is destroyed (see: Destroying Vehicles)

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PARTIAL COVER AND FULL COVER

As denoted in the left box of each Vehicle, Vehicles can be Partial Cover or Full Cover.

Figures occupying Vehicles with Full Cover are never in clear sight of figures outside of that Vehicle and never have clear sight on figures outside of that Vehicle.

Vehicles with Partial Cover do allow for clear sight between figures occupying that Vehicle and figures on the outside. Partial Cover Vehicles are those with windows or other openings that allow for clear sight. These clear sight openings will be marked on Army Cards by the green target points on the Vehicle’s Hit Zone. Clear sight can only be traced through these target points.

When a figure occupying a Partial Cover Vehicle targets a figure outside of that Vehicle, they should use the target point for that Vehicle to trace line of sight and range. When a figure outside of a Partial Cover Vehicle targets a figure occupying that Vehicle, they should use the target points for that Vehicle as the hit zone for any occupying figure.

Unless a special power indicates otherwise, a figure can only target one figure occupying a Vehicle at a time. If, however, a special power targets or chooses a space and the space the Vehicle occupies is chosen, the Vehicle and all figures occupying the Vehicle are affected.

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MOVING VEHICLES

In addition to the Size, Life, and Defense values contained on destructible object cards, Vehicles have a Movement value. After revealing an Order Marker on one of your Army Cards, instead of moving normally with all of the figures associated with that card, if one of the figures from that card occupies a Vehicle, you may move that Vehicle. You may only move a Vehicle once for each Order Marker you reveal. When moving the Vehicle, follow standard movement rules, with one exception: Vehicles and occupying figures do not make or receive leaving engagement attacks.

If a Vehicle would be moved, any figures occupying it stay in that Vehicle and are moved with it. If any of the occupants cannot be moved for any reason, that Vehicle cannot be moved.

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EXITING VEHICLES

After moving a Vehicle you control, you may place a figure from the Vehicle’s Army Card on an empty space and adjacent to the Vehicle. You may exit with any or all of your figures on the same turn. The figure that moved the Vehicle may now complete its turn. Remember, the figure that moved the Vehicle did so at the expense of its normal movement.

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DESTROYING VEHICLES

If a Vehicle receives enough wounds to be destroyed, any excess wounds beyond what it takes to destroy the structure are immediately inflicted on any figures on top of the structure and occupying the structure. After removing the destroyed Vehicle from the battlefield, place all figures that remain on top of the structure on spaces previously occupied by the destroyed structure. Figures moved when the structure is destroyed never take any leaving engagement attacks but will receive any falling damage that may apply.

Then place each remaining figure occupying the Vehicle on a space or spaces previously occupied by the destroyed Vehicle. If a figure that was occupying a destroyed structure cannot be placed on a legal space or spaces, that figure is immediately destroyed.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I really like the concept to partial or full coverage as it relates to clear sight and things like windows. I think flame thrower type of SA will like roasting a car and everyone in it, which will be fun!

Not sure I agree with the part about Blob preventing Magneto from tossing a car around. In physics it's call relativity, Blob can't be moved relative to his seat in the car, but the car can be moved relative to the Earth. It the reason why you can jump up in down in a plane that's moving at 500 mph above the Earth without flying backwards. Being inside of the plane makes your movement, or lack of movement in the case of Blob, relative to the plane, not the planet.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

1. Glad you're digging the Partial and Full Cover. Chatting it over with folks, I figured that it gives us the level of flexibility we need to use this power set for a whole bunch of different types of structures and vehicles. And it doesn't force us to price a basic car as a suit of mech armor for Joker and Prof X.

2. Game mechanics-wise (not simulation of physics-wise) Blob's Immovable power states that he cannot be moved by any power on any Army Card or Glyph unless his controlling player wants him to be.

So our other option is figuring out a clean mechanical way for him to be ripped out of a Vehicle when he doesn't want to move. If we can't/don't want to figure out a way to do that, the text seems necessary even if not 100% scientifically on point.

3. The other point to touch on is the whole "when an enemy figure occupies the same vehicle, it's automatically destroyed" bit. It's there for mechanical simplicity (not worrying about engagement/attacking/etc. inside of a vehicle, but the fact that a figure can now easily be mind controlled while behind the wheel will open the game up to a lot more instances of this happening.

Is this desirable? Is there a good way of dealing with it if not?

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I overlooked the 3rd part of your last post. Not sure how to really handle that. Letting one successful temp. mind control roll result in killing 3 other full life figures riding in the car seems way out of balance. Why can't two figures from different teams just exist in one vehicle at the same time? Either one can bail out of a door and start attacking the vehicle (or those inside if it has windows) normally.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

If you put hexes on the card where you place the figures, they could attack each other while in the car, also you could designate the Driver's seat.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

If there was a clearly defined driver, it could be fun to have a driver that is mind controlled purposely wreck the car and try to KO/injure those inside it. As it stands now, if a car is driven into the Warehouse Ruins breakable wall section, does the car take any damage?

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

For a Hit and Run, yes, they both take damage.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

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Originally Posted by Yodaking (Post 2260443)

Just to be clear, in the current proposed mechanics it's the vehicle that would be automatically destroyed. Actually, in this case, since the vehicle wouldn't be taking an excessive wounds, all passengers would escape unscathed, so long as there were legal spaces to place them (if there weren't, then I suppose they'd be automatically destroyed).

We can certainly adjust so that we all figures from multiple armies to occupy multi-passenger vehicles at the same time, but it will be a whole new can of worms in terms of powers and effects.

I'd agree that having a designated driver would be essential, and would argue that at that point controlling the driver of the vehicle would mean controlling the vehicle and that, of course, only the driver could move the vehicle on their turn (a little weird that passengers can move it as is, honestly).

So if we're going all in, this might be worth doing, but it's another thing to bite off for sure.

What do you all think?

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I like it. It is more but I think in the end it will all be pretty intuitive and easy after a run or two.
We have to do a police car with Hot Pursuit power. :)

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Not trying to make more work for you guys, but yeah I like the idea of knowing who is driving when more than one figure is in the same vehicle and only letting that one actually move the car now that we are going to let those riding shotgun to shoot out of the windows. I like the idea of putting 4 hexes together off the map with one hex being a different color from the other 3 to designate the driver seat for a passenger car. Then if one is mind controlled they can just attack the figure adj. to them in the car if they are not driving, if they are driving they can try to wreck the car or drive them away from the fight. Seems like a fun new experience having drive by's and such.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I wonder if we should include a printable, colored hex-strip with vehicles to make this apparent?

I think this would encourage me to make a lot of vehicles one-seaters for ease and not to go over two-seaters for most of them. :-P

But I think this sounds doable with some more text. @quozl and @Ronin you both have participated a lot in this discussion - any thoughts?

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I've always been told designating a driver is responsible.

Makes sense to me, and I think it'll make the vehicles that much more consistent with enclosed structures representing small buildings, that get interior maps.

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

I'll try to take a shot at a revised version tomorrow!

Re: Draftable Vehicles Discussion Thread (Public Testing)

Personally, I lean to abstracting the insides of enclosed structures. I don't mind designating a driver but that's all I would want to designate. For simplicity's sake, I'd just say everyone inside is engaged to everyone else inside.